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guys, you are starting to act like a politics :-)

who gives a f..., what the site is, right? It can change as many 
times as the group wishes for. I believe btiffin simply wanted to 
get thing started. What would be his intention/motive to use Qtask? 
He is surely not paid by Reichart to bring user.r to qtask. Terry, 
I wonder if you would rise the same objections, if from the very 
beginning the site was based upon Kommonwealth? :-)

if someone will read it outside our group, he/she might think we 
are all ill. The group of what - less than 10 participants, can't 
get things moving in a natural way ...

I wonder if someone actually has a real preference to base our vote 
for the site upon? As for me, I don't, because I don't know, what 
the requirements are going to be ....

If I may represent Petr's main point: that it does not matter what 
web framework the temporary site is based upon, so long as no dependency 
to that framework is created and so long as there are no ulterior 
motives for using that framework.  In my opinion, given the agonies 
that have brought us to this point, it would not have been in Brian's 
or the group's interest to skimp on the selection process in favour 
of a preordained framework.  Dependency, as I've stated before, is 
of greater concern.

Also, if I may address the mood from the peanut gallery (one of whom 
apparently of Czech origin was marauding in the chamber), may I point 
out that consensual decision-making has never been proposed as a 
means of immediate resolution, rather well-considered decisions based 
on compromise (which active participants would also do well to remember) 
that most, if not all, can be comfortable with.  With regard to the 
elaborate formality (my powdered wig is very fetching, by the way), 
while language used is unfortunately anglo-centric, is expressive 
and better suited to conveying intent with narrower scope for misinterpretation.

Sirs, a chairperson and proper meeting must come to order before 
further discussion takes place. Is there no second to Peter Wood 
as chairman?

If you wish to join the meeting please post a request here.

Thank you Mr. Chairman,

This meeting has neglected to address the primary issue, which is 
the inappropriate 'conclusion' of using Qtask as the home site for 
this organization. I will accept the fact that, as we are now discussing 
an appropriate home site for user.r, that the error has been duly 
noted, with no further recourse, such as suspension or removal of 
chairing priviledges or restricted from voting on this matter, shall 
be necessary.


It also appears that Qtask, is to be considered, at this time, as 
'a current communications system' in use by user.r, even though this 
is somewhat controversial. Given this point, I will add to my earlier 
comments by agreeing with Mr. C and Mr. T and perhaps others, that 
Qtask is 'dark' .. in more ways than one.


In my earlier objections in May of this year, I also pointed out 
a number of other issues with regard to this 'third party' home site 
solution... The following are quotes to refresh the memories of my 
esteemed, perhaps elderly and somewhat senile, associates...


I object to the sixth motion on the grounds that Qtask is a proprietary 
company, that has a tendency to exclude critics
 
  

b) If not stricken, then provided as proof that utilizing a 3rd party, 
proprietary system can be detrimental to the welfare of this association, 
as it makes clear that said owners have in the past denied access 
at 'their sole discretion', and that this power supersedes the power 
of the chair, and as such, gives the owners of the system MORE power 
than the chair.

I also agree with others here that Qtask is 'dark'.

When I say things like..  "I recommend a private IRUA task force 
to look into possible influence peddling and other corruptions commited 
by IRUA's executive branch." .
... or ....
my elderly, and possibly senile associates
...or...

but that the current system casts a dark shadow of indeterminate 
length.
 
...or... "I motion that comment be stricken from the record." 
...or... "the alleged 'influence peddling corruption scandal" 

I WAS KIDDING!! A little 'poetic licence' if you will. 


I mean, think about it... "recommend a private IRUA task force" ? 
And you think Im serious? A PRIVATE TASK FORCE ?!?
    
Man, you guys really need to lighten up.

Formal user.r communications have moved to Qtask.com.  All interested 
parties are asked to drop btiffin a note either to REBOL3 private 
chat or to private email and an invitation will be sent out post 
haste.  Please give an email address for the invitation, or mention 
that the account listed here on REBOL3 is ok. 

user.r Chat will stay open on REBOL3 for the forseeable future, but 
this forum, user.r Formal will be closed sometime after September 
1st.

Thanks to all.
Brian Tiffin
user.r Secretary

Let it be known:


As my role as Secretary of user.r, the International REBOL User Association, 
it with great honour that I hereby announce that

Ashley G Trüter is named the 2008 user.r   rebol Of The Year.


Congratulations Ashley for the well deserved honour and the members 
of user.r would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your 
contributions, both personal and professional, to the world of REBOL 
development.


For those that may not know, Ashley is the author of many great software 
frameworks including RebGUI, RebDB and a SQLite driver.  He consistently 
displays a level of kind professionalism that makes him more than 
worthy to receive the first ever rebol of the year award.

Cheers mate.

Brian Tiffin
user.r Secretary

For hes a jolly good fellow, for hes a jolly good fellow........

Thanks for kicking off the user.r rebol of the year award.

DocKimbel would be a worthy winner: no question of that.


To make it more of a competition than last year, I'd like to formally 
nominate another person who'd also be a worthy winner for his excellent 
work in moving R3 forward while maintaining impeccable contact with 
the sometimes impatient developers:
  
====>    Brian Hawley

The 2009 roty will be a contest.  Details regarding a good and proper 
(REBOL) voting system will be posted shortly.  Anyone wishing to 
discuss the possibilities is invited to put ideas forward in user.r 
Chat.

Congratulations to the current nominees.

A belated but big thankyou to all for last year's nomination and 
kind words.

I would like to propose there be (a small number of ) categories. 
 then we can open up the voting to something a bit less abstract 
as the single most REBOLer.

For the 2009 roty's I'd like to propose a nomination deadline of 
November 10th, 2009.

For reference; nominees include Doc, Brian, Henrik.


I'd also like to offer congratulations and thanks; a sentiment that 
I am sure is shared by others.

It wasn't seconded ... Bob's rules say I shouldn't raise any points 
until someone / everyone else gets to speak. If I'm not mistaken, 
nominations can still be made (or a second occurs a split hair second 
before 11 Nov 2009 UTC).

Motion to implement a voting system using Gregg's codebase posted 
to user.r Chat on Wednesday December 23rd.


It's REBOL, it's open, but seems hidden enough to alleviate influence 
decisions based on previous voters, and timelines are now short.


Please note.  Unless someone motions disapproval before or after 
the seconding, but before January 1st, 2010, this motion is worded 
to bypass user.r Formal democracy and go straight to user.r implementation 
the moment the motion is seconded.

I'd second your motion, but I have a conflict of interest. :-)

you don't need.. if the module has a name in its header, the import 
will only be performed once, even if its called several times.

Do we need a telnet:// scheme?

yes pekr, there is possibility out there (putty sources being one), 
its just a question of some competent C coder taking some time to 
check it out and possibly wrap it as an extension and/or as a module 
to load in the host directly.

(and I'm not sure I can be considered a competent C coder hehee)

We
 as a RT may not ... but "we" as a user can ...

Pekr, "just wrapping" other code is not easy to do right, and takes 
time and effort. Less time and effort than rewiting it from scratch 
in some cases (likely including SSL and SSH), but still not a trivial 
effort.

Graham, a scheme that you can't distribute is of extremely limited 
use, too limited to justify the effort involved.

If google developed such a scheme, and kept it within their organization, 
that would be in keeping with GPL .. no need to release source

what I was envisaging was someone linking the host code to eg.  a 
gpl tls library and releasing instructions on how to build it yourself.

All right, too limited to justify *my* effort. Or anyone who doesn't 
work for a large company.

Have you created a GUI to replace VID using open GL yet ?

as I explained to sunanda, while doing the OpenGL port I decided 
to build my C code analyzer/compiler/converter to make the process 
as complete and painless as possible...


but I've hit a wall and need a better unit testing engine to complete 
that and the OpenGL convertion.

I'm not really stuck, i'm just building a highway instead of a small 
road... so it takes a bit more ground work.

and then the ability to create complete C extensions for just about 
any C useable tools in a few minutes.

and since the C analyser has a programable emitter, you will be able 
to customize what it does.

honestly I don't know, but its a funded project overall, so it is 
my current job.  which means it will happen for sure.


I would love to have some usefull OpenGL stuff working in february.

one reason I'm doing Sea (the C converter) is that for each new improvement 
of extensions, we will be able to update our tools with a single 
rebuild of the extension. for large libs this is going to be a big 
deal.

Ok, what do we need for imap?  ( although I suspect doing all these 
email schemes is a waste of time without ssl ) ...

anyone got a how to on using stunnel ?

-c is for client mode, i.e. so that stunnel will connect to a server

-f is so that stunnel stays in the foreground (and you see debug 
output)

-P '' is to avoid creating a pid file (dunno if that is necessary 
on win32 stunnels)
-d sourceport tells stunnel to listen on sourceport
-r targethost:targetport to forward data to this target

the more interesting questions would be about a satisfying user interface. 
mostly how to wrap imap folders nicely in something that feels natural 
in rebol

Won't work without native changes to CHANGE-DIR, which calls the 
OS change directory function in the host code. In R3 the current 
directory is real on platforms that have a current directory (i.e. 
not WinCE), not faked like on R2.

and if it's not a file!, then check the scheme to see if there is 
an actor defined.

You could redefine the file and dir schemes in the host code to a 
virtual file system. It would be easier to have the operating system 
mount the urls to the filesystem, at least on Windows, OS X and *nix.

rebol doesn't seem to have a concept of a currernt directory as in 
windows ... where you can keep a directory for each volume mounted

You are thinking R2. R3 does have a current directory.

As Andreas notes, a write to the port inside the awake handler is 
fine .. but outside the handler, you have to do a wait on the port 
to do anything.

Also i found that without using a timeout value, it doesn't work 
for me 

So, I removed the 'read cmdport from write-cmdport function, and 
put the wait instead in the actor 'read ...

with a timeout

Signed up, sent myself a couple of emails to that account, and then 
managed to login and download using the imap protocol

Graham - you are becoming a networking Guru :-)

I suspect that the amount of detail put into making a bullet proof 
http scheme frightened everyone off!

Graham: During your "journey" through this .. did you notice if there's 
a standard template that would make sense for various parts of the 
implementation?

Ok.


My question above is whether there's a standard "core" that can be 
used across many protocols... a bit like net-utils or default protocol 
on R2.

I was thinking of using net-log as a way to hook into the low level 
activity of the protocol so that I can patch it as needed when interacting 
with a GUI ... eg, for progress meters

One thing that is not clear to me is that if you write to the port 

eg. write imap-port [ dialect stuff ]

and then 
wait imap-port


it can return immediately ... and you don't get anything unless you 
put in a timeout

eg. wait [ imap-port timeout ]

in wrote there is a 'read port .... but i don't get anyting back 
without the timeout

uploaded 0.0.3 

can login, select a mailbox, get length? and pick

It's at the bottom of the page as a file attachment

It was a free hosting offer I picked up a couple of years ago ...

Of course what I really like about it is that there is a REST based 
API that I can use with REBOL.

And wondering if that imposes a lot of GC ...

It wouldn't be a big change to the schemes if that gets implemented 
right ?

I think in my ftp scheme I access port/data directly so I can stream 
to the file system .. so it would require a tiny change if there 
were two sep buffers

Graham, before looking at your new schemes, I decided to review some 
of DocBase. But... I must say that I have a difficult time finding 
things there... I'm not sure if the user who was reorganizing it 
got a chance to finish the updates.

You did have an example somewhere of doing a large file transfer 
between client/server

A: do you have a wiki account?

I tossed a few up just now. Go ahead and add or edit as needed.

looks like we side tracked into a docbase update ...

Not a sidetrack. See my note. This is an opportunity to check the 
docs against the code.

Ok, fixed the IMAP proto so that no timeout is needed anymore. Stumbled 
over what seems to be a bug in R3's USE, though:

There's some optimizing of parsing the input and checking for incomplete 
data returned on a read to be done.

Back to separate buffers - just a note. I think that we eventually 
don't need them. But we should be carefull to user errors. Because 
with one shared buffer, if you write to it, before you read-out all 
incoming data, you just destroyed a data. And what if you don't need 
to act on the data yet? You will temporarily store it in some other 
storage (buffer) anyway. But I never wrote a scheme, so maybe this 
is just plain theory, and in fact having one buffer will not cause 
any problems to anyone ...

It would be good to get these all tested and written to a usable 
level while the code is still fresh, and while the spirit is willing 
...

Right, that was the plan ..to get Carl to review schemes and advise 
on a "best" practice.

Somewhere I came across a document that showed how 'open, 'read etc 
would search the schemes to invoke the correct actor.  Anyone know 
the link?

True ... but still there's a bug in find/part

but you must have a loop

with a sub-rule...
>> match: [(break/return true)]
>> loop 1 [parse msg [generator " OK" match]]

because break is not a part of the parse dialect.
It's a regular function

There are more than a few FIND bugs. Check CureCode to see if yours 
is covered already.

PARSE documentation is actually pretty extensive, but not yet organized. 
There was a lot of thorough research conducted during the parse project 
and revamp. It just hasn';t been put into the docs yet.

I think mine allows file upload resume by sening a APPE command with 
the rest of the file

a session will be something like:
>> session: open ftp://ftp.site.com
>> write session [
	USER "toto"
	PASS "****"
	PASV
	BINARY
	CD /dir-temp
	GET %thif-file
]
>> close session

and i will use a dialect to construct the state diagrams

for example, the state diagram used to open a ftp session looks like 
this currently.

USER
<< ( 
	(1 2) error
	(4 5) fail
	3 >> PASS << ( 
		2		success
		1		error
		(4 5)	fail
		3 >> ACCT << (
				2   	success
				(1 3) 	error
				4 5 	fail
		)
	)
)

it's a dialect

Nice ...  I'm looking for a dialected flow control GUI tool too :)

This one, to rename a file:

RNFR ;** rename a file.
<< (
	(1 2) error
	(4 5) fail
	3 (
		>> RTNO
		<< (
			2	success
			(1 3)	error
			(4 5)	fail
		)
	)
)

Both Maarten and I passed the secret and access keys as parameters 
to the various functions, but I think I'd rather have a system/user 
object to store them and use them from there.

You need to make sure that your data is task-safe too, so changeable 
global options are usually bad unless they are changed through a 
function that synchronizes access. system/contexts/user is task-specific.

so, it's system/contexts/user/user ... we can store a user object 
here?

I think we can work with everything being in system/contexts/user/user 
for the purposes of a scheme for the moment

Remember that 'user is a common script word, so that will be overwritten. 
Use module-local data, or port-specific data.

Is Gabriele ever coming back to work on any R3 stuff ?  Or is he 
a permanent qtask person now?

OK, but how does the native as 'read knows, what to do, if it is 
passed a port type? It is done somewhere in low level? In other words 
- which functions can be overriden that way?

'read checks to see if it is a port!, and then looks up the scheme

Maybe the way to find out is to create a dummy scheme and implement 
as many dummy actors you can think of and then test them....

One of the issues with AWS is all the XML .. but I think we don't 
need a fancy XML parser .. .as it's pretty basic stuff.

Possible actors are the functions accepting a port! as an input.

A couple of prototype functions for Amazon SDB
http://rebol.wik.is/Rebol3/AWS