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I don't know if it has been removed yet or if that will be a 3.1 
feature.

Back to my question (a long time ago :-) May I assume that the behaviour 
I wrote about in my question is a bug? A probe works, but anyhow 
the window won't move anymore.

seems host code work is now continuing. Something with a MinGW C 
target.

how can I remove an entry from a map! in R3? BTW, I use string! (not 
word!) as index here, so I cannot just say:  my-map/my-word: none

arie, ok. I don't have a solution, but this needs to be looked into 
once GUI work continues. While the Core of R3 has moved forward a 
lot, GUI has not moved in the past year. it could be that a feature 
is broken in the GUI now because of this.

but your string is not a url, its a string.

If it did a full url-encode, that'd be good, but it doesn't.

Is this is a bug? - url::%23 and url::# are not the same:

	>> url::%23
	== url::#

Chris, url::%23 and url::# should not be the same. The purpose of 
percent encoding is to allow you to specify character values without 
them being treated as syntax. If you specify a # directly in an http 
url, for instance, it should be taken as the start of the anchor 
portion of the url. If you percent encode it, it shouldn't be an 
anchor.

Is there a reason why it should decode any percent encoded character 
on loading?

I have been thinking that urls should stay percent-encoded until 
they are decoded by DECODE-URL, so that percent-encoded characters 
won't be mistaken for syntax characters. (I don't claim this is my 
idea - I think you said it earlier, and I remember that.)


Is this approach a good one? Have you thought of any gotchas or downsides 
to this? Will this require that urls have an associated decoded version 
that would be stored as well as the character version? Do you think 
we could get away with TRANSCODE enforcing the initial rules, then 
not checking again until it comes time for DECODE-URL to be called 
(on OPEN, for instance)?

The main gotcha so far to the keep-encoded approach is whether INSERT 
and APPEND should do some magic percent encoding or not. It seems 
that it may be a better approach to just assume that the programmer 
knows what they are doing and just insert what they say to insert 
as is, as long as the url character set restrictions are met. This 
would mean that the programmer would need to handle their own percent 
encoding where needed, and that INSERT or APPEND would not do any 
encoding or decoding. Or perhaps some non-syntax characters, such 
as space, could be encoded by MOLD instead of rejected and DECODE-URL 
just adjusted to not freak out when it seees them. What do you think?

Intertype linearity is more of a guideline anyways. If types behaved 
identically, there wouldn't be point to more than one :)

its a question of taste, in R2 a lot of the series handling stuff 
in some types alienate me more than anything.

for urls, I'll let you guys assess it... I'm the kind of guy that 
will do all with the string and just convert it to url at the end, 
 its just much more useable that way... you have a better control 
over stuff like "/" in the path anyways.

I think I'd look for at least the following behaviour:

	>> url::%23#
	== url::%23#
	>> join url:: "%23#"
	== url::%23#

 >> join url:: " " ; space is not in the uri spec, so could arguably 
 be converted
	== url:: 
	>> read url::%23# ; dependent on the scheme, I guess
	== "GET %23"


The problem with magic percent encoding is with the special characters. 
 As it is now, it is impossible (so far as I can ascertain) to build 
an http url that encodes special characters eg "#=&%" - Twitter being 
a great case where an encoded # is integral to the service.  Given 
though that the list of special characters is short and well defined, 
perhaps they could be the exception to a magic encoding rule.

I have noticed the new developments in specifying bitsets. The NOT 
feature is potentially useful but needs much more work. E.g. there 
is no way to programmatically find out that a bitset has been specified 
with NOT. Try the following code: 
>> equal? charset [" "] charset [not " "] 
== true

Besides a logic-valued function to determine if a bitset is specified 
wih NOT, one needs all functions (natives, actions) that work on 
bitsets to cater for the NOT-specification. So far, most of them 
plainly ignore this.

Brian... in how many places do I have to post it? Will a new place 
come out next here, and you'll tell me to make sure it's posted there?

what moves?


If you think, you might be able to figure out, which moves Gabriele 
talk about. (And you don't have to answer or comment this. Less noise 
and more thinking would be good for a change.)

Geomol - my question was rhetorical. I think I do understand what 
Gabriele means, I just don't agree with the outcome. There are clear 
places where to post, easy as that. It is a bit difficult sometimes 
to get Carl's attention, but 80 tickets a month get such an attention. 
The development process of R3 might look chaotic, jumping from one 
area to the other, but if we want, and we care, we know how to get 
such an attention. 


I for one asked Carl privately about your concern towards R3 speed 
in certain situations. And you know what? I got some answer too. 
I asked Carl to comment to your ticket, he did so. In few hours. 
You could do just the same, no? It is very easy to become a naysayer, 
to express some worries, etc., but other thing is to actaully act, 
not just talk, and then your saying applies - "less noise and more 
thinking (and acting) would be good for a change" :-)


.... and please - I think I don't need any guides on what should 
I comment, or not. But the fact is, that I don't want to let anyone 
to dismiss the hard work which is being put into R3. I don't care 
about myself at all, but I see it at least as dishonest to those, 
who really try to bring R3 out, and we have few such friends here 
...

BrianH: 'call in R3 is more low level, right? I would like to do 
following thing - I want to have few powerpoint presentations running 
in a loop. In R2, I could use call/wait, and once the presentation 
is finished, the console returned. In R3, there are no refinemenst 
as /wait, /output.


Is there any equivalence? Was R2 using "start" command in windows? 
I tried with "start", but got following error:

>> call "start /WAIT powerpnt /S test.ppt"

** Access error: external process failed: "Systém nemùže nalézt uvedený 
soubor.^
M^/"
** Where: call
** Near: call "start /WAIT powerpnt /S test.ppt"

hmm, even if I use: 

>> call "cmd /c start /WAIT powerpnt /S test.ppt"


... it behaves in an async manner. It is a bit difficult without 
some R2 features. I had another plan in mind - I still have some 
R2 wrapper for Win32API funcs like launching app, moving window, 
setting its position, finding window by name, etc. (it originated 
from Gregg's send-keys dialect). But with R3, we don't have DLL interface 
anymore.


Now I wonder, if I should write an extension, or there is some plan 
to adress #1223?


I can use R2 as an interim solution, just wondering which way we 
go in R3, in regards to 'call. If I should start to think Extension 
way, or wait for 'call being enhanced?

I plan to use R3. I defined what makes R3 beta a good release, and 
adressing 'call is one of those points. CGI/IO was already adressed.

Pekr, I did this interface some time ago. It is based on a previous 
implementation from J.F. Theis, and is implemented as a TCP-IP server. 
I will certainely make out of it an extension for R3, but it can 
be already be used either with R2 or R3 as soon as you are able to 
send TCP-IP commands. See http://colineau.societeg.com/rebol/r2win151.html
. Unfortunately, it seems that the host site is down right now. If 
the shutdown persists, I will put it  in some other place.

Gabriele, every time you mention a document or code that was posted 
somewhere two years ago, without providing a link, or stating which 
AltME world the file is in (with file name/path preferably), then 
it comes across as useless complaining. If you want something done, 
say so. If you want to say that you *already did something*, prove 
it. Show me. Complaints about a time before the restart of the R3 
project aren't relevant to the current project. Live in the now :)

The standard TELLS you when

 - No it doesn't. The standard doesn't cover R3 internals, not even 
 in a generic non-language-specific way. The "when" I was talking 
 about has nothing to do with the encoding itself - it has to do with 
 internal data formats.

As for where things go, we built places for such things (as mentioned 
above) and they haven't moved in a year.

wouldn't it make sense for TRIM/WITH to be able to use a bitset?

>> trim/with "abc" charset "ac"
** Script error: trim does not allow bitset! for its str argument

Today I have seen a Wii GUI in action. It has been designed to be 
used with a remote controller.
Also XBOX 360 and PS3 have been.

Interactive Boxes like Digital TV receiver, Mediacenters are designe 
to be used with a remote.

We are entering in an era where mouse and keyboard are no more the 
standard input methods.

Animated transitions and some 3D are necessary for a modern GUI system.


GUIs are the basic instruments users interact s with our applications. 
If we give the feeling of a modern GUI 50% of our work has been done 
because they will feel the program to be modern and good, even if 
it isn't. really so.


Our customers are people: specialist and families like the one I 
have encountered this evening. They use Modern Touch based Cell Phones, 
MediaCenters, Remote Controllers and at the and Mouse and Keyboards.

Hope my observations helps.

This has been a very silent month for REBOL... probably a lot of 
things are underway.

Carl is furiously at work putting time on the host.  a lot of unglorified 
but required time.

once that is out the bag... I expect a lot will suddenly happen at 
once.

I see a performance increase. R3 is faster than R2 in a few tests, 
I've done so far.

I tested this:
dt [a: 1. b: 2. loop 10000000 [a + b * a / b]]
and this:
do http://www.fys.ku.dk/~niclasen/rebol/r3/mandelbrot.r

Hm, I need to test some more, I guess, because I initially see a 
speed increase, but your results show differently.

We've been through this, but I still have to bring it up. "REBOL 
3 needs a new name"

A new name, a new beginning, and a new reputation.

I decided to use REBOL to develop our system a couple of months ago, 
and everyone was against me. Now the system was done, they were surprised 
at how quickly I did this using a scripting language. They considered 
this development process a good example of the productivity of scripting 
language. They want me to talk about it in front of 400+ employees 
in the tech department. But I am too afraid to say REBOL out loud 
in front of people now. I will call REBOL "a dynamic language" in 
the tech convention. I just cannot call it REBOL. Last time I did 
this, everyone was question me.

REBOL 3 beta is coming out soon. If we want REBOL to have a new name. 
This is the right time.

I would be also in favor of  renaming Rebol. The impact on those 
who already know or use Rebol would not be negative, and it could 
be a good opportunity to launch a "new Rebol ", with a new image 
to the other.

I'm against changing the name for several reasons:


- The name is established. It takes years to re-establish a new name 
to gain new momentum. Carl's company name needs to change as well.

- You need to relate REBOL 2 with <new-language-name>. This requires 
effort and you'll have to waste a long time explaining this fact.

- There are already too many *-script languages out there, which 
makes AltScript less distinctive. So, is it a Javascript or Applescript 
derivative or what?

Downsides to REBOL:


- The name is overused, which is why there are people against the 
name.
- Pronounciation problem.
- Pointy-haired boss problem (REBOL? REBEL? Hackertool.)
- REBOL is sometimes confused as a COBOL or ALGOL derivative.

- Had REBOL been named AltScript in the beginning, there may not 
have been a problem, but also no distinction.

Suggestions:


- Tone down the use of the name. Use the name as for a technology 
engine, rather than something end-users will confront, like DirectX 
or OpenGL.

Jerry, why do you think that people who have problems with REBOL 
name will not have same problems with any other name? I think that 
changing name will not make things easier. They will be scared in 
the same way. Mostly that   using something new is hazardous. For 
example if you are the only one in the company who knows how to program 
in REBOL, what if you will have some incident suddenly? This is nothing 
what renaming can solve. Anyway, such a discussions are usualy in 
Advocacy chat.

I also agree with Henrik, and believe that you really need to stress 
that the name was derived from an acronym as pointed out by Henrik. 
 Once that is fully understood, the relationship to rebel or the 
negative meaning should be a thing of the past.  The benefit is more 
people will be aware of the acronymn that was used to derive the 
name.

I have colleagues that called Rebol  REBOLa, likening it to a virus 
after a colleague's machine acted up after installing Rebol.  It 
was coincidental as I have never in my years heard anyone else complain 
of a similar happening.

AltScript sounds like some yet another scripty thing to me.. nothing 
to remember it by .. They are scared because they don't know it, 
probably never heard of it so it's that what we have to change. I 
think the R3 openeness and new features will make it more approcable 
by the masses so there is a chance to spread. Also rebol community 
is qute self sufficient and closed in it's own world which doesn't 
help at being "everywhere".

the use of R3 as a name is less annoying.  I hate saying rebel in 
conversation when refering to it.   it really doesn't give a good 
impression.  which is why I do my best NOT to pronounce it rebel, 
but rEbOl.

I just realised that a nice same could be "square", in reference 
to its orthogonality and the use of square brakets.

R3 is my opinion is not great.  I work in a company that deals with 
a large installation of SAP, which is often referred to SAP R/3. 
 This may change one day, but I don't know when, it's a major undertaking 
upgrading this environment.  Also, what do you do when you increment 
R3 to the next major release, rename again to R4, or start calling 
it R3 v2 or something of the like?

to be clear   "R3 is my opinion is not great."  should read "R3 in 
my opinion is not a great name either"
.

but rebol is a backronym, so its relative precision is... well, imperfect, 
at least.

the fact that name change comes back over and over IS a clue to the 
fact that the name isn't well chosen.


its aggressive, that's all there is to it for me.  if rebol was called 
"goat" "lisa" or "amigo".   we wouldn't care about the name... it 
would just be a label, but rebol, which is intended to be a spin 
on rebel, isn't passive.  it has some kind of "I know better than 
you" tone to it, which REALLY doesn't cross well in the real-world 
marketplace.

R is a scientific language primarily used for statistics

I'd prefer any non negative  name.  charm, zen, other, speak, do, 
make, eureka, sanskript, gaya, bobcat, merlot, elemental, message, 
companion, velvet.


rebol has no "name to upkeep"  after all these years, rebol.org doesn't 
even have 1000 scripts, come on.   REBOL technologies doesn't have 
to change its name, the language is a product of a company.


R.E.B.O.L  WITH the dots, could stay in reference to the technology 
upon which the language is built, but even that isn't very precise 
to begin with.


an acronym so closely tied to the technology binds the technology, 
or looses its meaning as the technology evolves.  The best names 
are abstract to what they represent .

Bringing up a forgotten feature from early R3 days:

>> a: [a b c]
== [a b c]

>> a: next a
== [b c]

>> clear head a
== []

>> a
== [] ; Script Error: Out of range or past end in R2

>> past? a
== true ; new for R3

>> tail? a
== true

Just for fun :-)

Max: I agree with you: REBOL is not an acronym, it is a backronym. 
Examining the "Relative Expression Based Object Language":

*"Relative Language" does not have a standard meaning

*"Expression Based Language" - standard is "Expression Oriented Language"

*"Object Language" - standard is "Object-based", or "Object Oriented"

Don't know it just sounds better. I'm not a fan to give such words 
a meaning.

although there is no chance that a new name gets chosen;
areaL
a reflexive, expressive and adaptive Language

We in fact are invited to do so, or were a while ago, when there 
was a discussion about it.

I fixed my StRIP packer (based on RIP but the result is enbased instead 
of binary data - I had a reason to do this) for R3. Packs directories 
and I added one refinement - /code - you can add additional code 
that is run after unpacking the archive. So you can use that directory 
just as a temp dir and then move files somewhere else or anything 
you want. It's basically  a package manager, a very spartan one, 
but good enough for me. Get form next line (to prevent that extremly 
old and stupid AltME links bug).

Only a few weeks to Xmas ... has Santa Carl got any thing for us?

Cyphre, onmy computer  with your mandelbrot-int.r script i get :

rebol 2 VM 2.7.6.31 : 0:00:03.904
rebol 3 (2.100.95a): REBOL Elapsed 0:00:04.354   


my computer in intel core i5  750 , 4Go DDR3 1333MHz Gygabyte P55UD3 
 

so maybe you should upgrade  ( and i'm sur where i lost most of the 
time where in the consol exists)

(oh and i had a 3D game running on the computer at same time...)

yeah but i like the  benchmarks based on deprecated harware ... as 
you could see  on a today's computer (and not even to top mark one) 
 the gap betwin R2 and R3 isn't so wide as stated by cyphre...

For new hardware, the platforms limited to 32bit tend to be the ones 
where performance is a problem. If you want to run 32bit code on 
anything other than a netbook, then your hardware is overkill. The 
big boxes are switching to 64bit. And it matters a lot for R3 since 
integer math is 64bit even on 32bit builds.

Windows has been going 64bit since XP/2003, and is going that way 
in a big way with 7/2008r2. OS X is going 64bit with 10.6 - 32bit 
only matters for 10.5 and below. Only on Linux is 64bit a problem, 
mostly for 32bit backwards compatibility.

brianH and since then the windows 64  bits is more than a candestine 
OS ... (i'm asking myself if windows OSes  in 64 bit are more used 
on eath than rebol or not ...)

You might not have noticed, but many applications for Windows have 
been releasing 64bit builds recently. Just because *you* can't recompile 
the software doesn't mean that the developers of the software can't 
and won't. Most do, except the .NET or Java apps that don't need 
to be. As for drivers, a simple configure, make, install won't work 
unless the code was written and tested in 64bit mode. Having a 64bit 
OS that will easily run 32bit binaries without complaint is better 
that requiring the users to do a recompile (and likely rewrite) of 
the application.

so we went for a debian 64 bit  home made os and that was perfect

I wouldn't know - I haven't found a piece of hardware made after 
64bit CPUs came out (many years ago) that I can't get to work on 
Win7 64bit, even if it means using XP 64bit drivers Only one peice 
of hardware didn't have drivers built in. My friend found one 10-year 
old piece of audio hardware that won't work in anything past XP, 
even 32bit Perhaps your mileage may vary, but I doubt it. And the 
few applications that I use that don't have 64bit versions work without 
problems, even in 32bit.

on the "server"  a digital dec 50 we kept the digital UX with an 
adapter X11 server to broadcast the Xterminal sessions ...

a part for intel Xeon which is the server version and obvious 64 
bit version processor it's hard to know what  is the adress / integer 
lenght in the other processor

i'm not i'm using viva firefox ... explorer 8 is a shit ....

Sorry, what is that? I haven't seen one of those in years. Must be 
a driver thing - apps don't cause blue screens, not even Explorer.

And as long as R3 scripts work the same (which we have been more 
careful of) then it won't be a problem.

It's the bare minimum necessary to compete with other cross-platform 
development tools. This is why platform support will be open source. 
R3 is a community project - R2 was a commercial product. You can't 
really compare the two.

i have one problem for example  actually i made an irc bot to  ask 
and difuse the song name on the public channel when asked by users. 
When my bot match the command then it  opens a web connection read 
the radio welcome webpage and retrieve from it the song and artist 
information then it build a nice reply and reply

so as the shoutcast server provide that information my  thoughs are 
can we with rebol 2  retrieve from a shoutcast server the appropriate 
information  and how to do that using rebol?

ok never mind i found  a way  to do it   i will  copy and adapt the 
way php does it .... (shoutcast_class.php)

apparently the shoutcast datapart works like a regular webserver

the cookies-daemon is not needed here. It's just the peace of code 
which makes REBOL to look like a browser.

they take a sample of the MP3 sent then they extract the metatag 
part to get the song and artists

in php they do it like that 

	function getHTML($page=False)
	{
		if (!$page)
			$page = $this->path;
		$contents = "";

  $domain = (substr($this->domain, 0, 7) == "http://") ? substr($this->domain, 
  7) : $this->domain;



  if (@$fp = fsockopen($domain, $this->port, $this->errno, $this->errstr, 
  2))
		{
			fputs($fp, "GET ".$page." HTTP/1.1\r\n".

    "User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows 98)\r\n".
				"Accept: */*\r\n".
				"Host: ".$domain."\r\n\r\n");

			$c = 0;
			while (!feof($fp) && $c <= 20)
			{
				$contents .= fgets($fp, 4096);
				$c++;
			}

			fclose ($fp);

			$this->encodeContent($contents);

			preg_match("/(Content-Type:)(.*)/i", $contents, $matches);
			if (count($matches) > 0)
			{
				$contentType = trim($matches[2]);


    preg_match("/(meta http-equiv=\"Content-Type\" content=\"(.*); charset=(.*)\")/iU", 
    $contents, $matches);
				if (isset($matches[3]))
				{
					$this->setStreamEncoding($matches[3]);
				}
				if ($contentType == "text/html")
				{
					$this->isShoutcast = True;
					return $contents;
				}
				else
				{
					$this->isShoutcast = False;


     $htmlContent = substr($contents, 0, strpos($contents, "\r\n\r\n"));


     $dataStr = str_replace("\r", "\n", str_replace("\r\n", "\n", $contents));
					$lines = explode("\n", $dataStr);
					foreach ($lines AS $line)
					{
						if ($dp = strpos($line, ":"))
						{
							$key = substr($line, 0, $dp);
							$value = trim(substr($line, ($dp+1)));
							if (preg_match("/genre/i", $key))
								$this->nonShoutcastData['Stream Genre'] = $value;
							if (preg_match("/name/i", $key))
								$this->nonShoutcastData['Stream Title'] = $value;
							if (preg_match("/url/i", $key))
								$this->nonShoutcastData['Stream URL'] = $value;
							if (preg_match("/content-type/i", $key))
								$this->nonShoutcastData['Content Type'] = $value;
							if (preg_match("/icy-br/i", $key))

        $this->nonShoutcastData['Stream Status'] = "Stream is up at ".$value."kbps";
							if (preg_match("/icy-notice2/i", $key))
							{

        $this->nonShoutcastData['Server Status'] = "This is <span style=\"color: 
        red;\">not</span> a Shoutcast server!";
								if (preg_match("/ultravox/i", $value))

         $this->nonShoutcastData['Server Status'] .= " But an <a href=\"http://ultravox.aol.com/\" 
         target=\"_blank\">Ultravox</a> Server";
								$this->altServer = $value;
							}
						}
					}
					return nl2br($htmlContent);
				}
			}
			else
				return $contents;
		}
		else
		{
			return False;
		}
	}

i got that {icy-notice1:<BR>This stream requires <a href="http://www.winamp.com/">Winamp</a><BR>^M

icy-notice2:SHOUTcast Distributed Network Audio Server/Linux v1.9.8<BR>^M
icy-name:OUIFM^M
icy-genre:Rock^M
icy-url:http://www.ouifm.fr^M
content-type:audio/mpeg^M
icy-pub:1^M
icy-br:128}
>>

same i'm using R2 ... i don't code with R3 ... and yeah taht the 
R3  group .. shame on me ... I won't get a gift for Xmas...

I just don't get why REBOL is changing the LF to CRLF, but I was 
not doing network coding for a very long time.

in fact the ICY we get with your method is a warning notice inviting 
you to use winamp and not the ICY with the song title and artist 
name wich are the information i want ...

so i do a find "StreamTitle=" or a parse data [ some [ "StreamTile=" 
 copy artistsong thru ";StreamUrl="]

no.. the StreamTitle is just a part of the ICY info

yeah that's the new one  ok i made a HTML version oldes if you want 
to see the bot

oldes one day we will do a winamp streaming player  using Rebol 3 
 in only 10 lines :P

About comparing pairs, currently we've got an error...
>> 1x1 < 2x2
== script error! cannot compare pair! with pair!

Is that "y" must take precedence over "x" (as in R2), or not. 
But a default behavior must be taken.


Personnaly I prefer no coordinate precedence (i don't really care).
i.e. :
>> pair1 < pair2
as
>> pair1 = min pair1 pair2

It's also problematic using MIN with pairs to make some rules, as 
can be seen with this example:

>> min 2x2 3x1
== 2x1


It seems, MIN can create a new value, that isn't among the input 
values. Related to this is complex numbers, that have a real and 
an imaginary part (like 2D coords have two parts). In e.g. Python, 
you get an error, when using inequalities (<, >, <= and >=) with 
complex numbers. In math, it doesn't really make sense to use an 
equality with two complex numbers. You can do that with the absolute 
value (like length of a vector).


So maybe it's more correct to give an error, when comparing pairs 
this way, like R3 does now.

This is a function exported from extension, becaouse you can write 
different function using differend type of arguments it is globally 
called command! Another thing is some abstraction in names used in 
future things in (Carl's) mind.

even better then :) .. but what is haru-pdf in this case ? is it 
a module?

haru-pdf can be a module or an object

aha, so you could create bind-all that would receive a block of contexts 
and bind to them all .. I see now bind is also in R2 which I have 
here

Allowing a block of contexts for bindings has been already requested 
in curecode for R3

ha, I tried and it really works :) 


a: context [ name: "janko" ]  aa: func [ ] bind [ print name ] a 
aa 
janko