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So, is there a timeframe to declare the current development method 
a failure ??

Well, everything is all about your abilities. If you want to do a 
commercial product you can't make alone(from any reason) then use 
some other free work or pay anoyne who'll do it for you.

This is true .. but I'm talking about making Rebol available to a 
broadbase of developers

Making it so that only a few can use it to the full is IMHO pointless

It is not the way to achieve a broad user base

it's just a question of numbers .. the more users you have, the more 
expert users you will also have.

If you know there is a big market and you just need really good tool 
why you wouldn't buy it for reasonable price?

Cyphre - we would buy R3 for a reasonable price. Make a 300 USD SDK 
kit for Android, and I am fine with that.

No..this was just a comparison. Such R3 based tool doesn't need to 
have anything with 3D...it just have to be useful. If you pick just 
a few pltforms/markets that makes it useful and do the ports you 
have very high chance it will save other developers time and they'll 
buy it.

Maybe if you can be first to market with a new tool .. but we don't 
have that

in some cases half a pie is not good enough

Unity3D is a mixed license product too. Developers pay for the closed-source 
portions.

It's one of the only open source business plans that works nowadays. 
Pure open source usually generates no income for the creators and 
contributors of a project.

Agreed, you have to look at the community as a whole, not just a 
single company. In those cases, the closed outer layer is written 
by other companies and the inner core programmers are supported through 
patronage (training/support models are variants on patronage). Most 
open source code is supported either by patronage, by selling closed 
addons, or is just a hobby/charity.

STEEVE +100 but STEEVE clearly RMA don't want to work with us they 
want to start their business  using us as publicity and free testing 
ground ... you can't mixe free and not free that way ... If you do 
a foundation that gather  donations and reparts those donations to 
the main "contributors" according to their contribution then it's 
a totally different situation than what is made actually. First the 
source code produced and paid by the foundation belongs to the foundation. 
They don't belong to an obscure commercial entity ( I'm sure Robert 
cyphre and the other has the best volunty in the world and only good 
intention but the way it's done only  make me believe they want to 
use us to get money on our back one way or another)

Kaj ok so your idea of a working rebol community is a rebol community 
with 10 R3/GUI because 10 of us has different ideas on the topic.

Kaj that's not my way to see that that's all but don't worry i'm 
looking for people to help me do my own project and discuss about 
a forked R3/GUI  you are free to join the discussion... And I won't 
ask you pennies for functionalities :).

that's not communautary work... that's not the way a community should 
work you think the guys in blender, gtk+ the gimp etc... work without 
exchanging informations each on their corners and that's how their 
projects goes on? We are not alot so we need to be more focused than 
any other and creating distansions and oposing the gurus to the rest 
of the world isn't the right path. But as yuri said on another forum 
lesson 1 rebol is a bobbistic language, it's the hobby of Carl and 
the hobby of most of us and that's why when it sucks people disapears 
to do other things.

it's not only against some people in this community that i'm doing 
my asks that's to have a clear ground to know what we can do what 
we can't what quality we could expect will the bugs we submit will 
be solved ? will RMA group will goes on after the initial "release" 
? How will be  decided the the futur work on that topic .. See all 
that are topic that concerns us.

...RMA don't want to work with us...

 - that is a lie. RMA do want to work with all developers wanting 
 to cooperate. In fact, there are areas, where you could easily contribute. 
 But, if you instead try to show RMA do something you don't want them 
 to do, then your this is not how cooperation works.

Something to change the mood - Have a banana split Guys - (Vintage 
79's)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgVttp5pfjI

Scala Team Wins ERC Grant: The Scala research group at EPFL is excited 
to announce that they have won a 5 year European Research Grant of 
over 2.3 million Euros to tackle the "Popular Parallel Programming" 
challenge. http://www.scala-lang.org/node/8579

PS3 Hacked Once and For All?
http://forum.digital-digest.com/showthread.php?t=94339

Sony sues Geohot and his team over PS3 3.55 jailbreak

http://www.geek.com/articles/games/sony-sues-geohot-and-his-team-over-ps3-3-55-jailbreak-20110112/


Does Sony have a case? Was it ok, when Sony removed the "install 
other OS" feature? Was it legal?

this is a very nice demo about security... Brian should go over this 
whole thing and I'm sure he'll get some ideas into increasing the 
security model in REBOL.

The question is, does Sony have a clue?

We've not applied any specific intellectual property but instead 
spent time analysing where boot delays are coming from and simply 
optimising them away. The majority of the modifications we make usually 
fall into the category of 'removing things that aren't required', 
'optimising things that are required', or 'taking a new approach 
to solving problems' and are tailored very precisely to the needs 
of the 'product'.

yeah but this is a very super specific 1 application run environement 
...

but even ... the fluidity of boot knowing it's only a 500Mhz processor 
is amazing ...

I like extrem stuffs like that ... It shows that hardware progress 
just servs people to be more lazy in their creation. At a time hardware 
was short and expensive people were spending zillions hours to  optimise 
everything even going on the lower possible assembly level to have 
just and only the necessary. Now in days with  our gigantic powerfull 
processor people stoped to optimise things they pile up to the sky 
things and don't care if it take 30 more times to execute ...

Pekr linux is fast on boot time i mean a genuine  linux ubuntu 10.10 
on a 1.6 ghz procesor like my netbook boots up in 30 seconds wich 
isn't bad at all compare to the 5 minutes of boot time needed to 
 start windows 7 starter ed on same machine...

it's a know thing that when your kernel has to scan and locate proper 
drivers to fit your hardware in a driver library and load them as 
module that's the slowest way...

so now we have for example ubuntu 10.10 in netbook version which 
is basically a kernel with a driver module library that only fits 
the hardware you can find in the netbooks...  as the hardware library 
is smaller then it boots faster

but 1 second is still amazing .. I would say I this swichboot demo 
was about accessing to a regulare openbox window manager instead 
of a dashboard I would be already buying it :)

Geomol, did yours come with a standard Apple SSD or your own? I'm 
interested in replacing the drive I have in my Macbook.

from cold boot, I remember being able to print a sheet on my amiga 
@28HMz before my friend's PC was able to finish booting Win95 on 
his pentium. :-)

That's what happens when you boot from ROM and implement a good chunk 
of the functionality in hardware rather than software :)

http://www.portable-digital-video-recorder.com/shmoocon-2011-printers-gone-wild/

Networked HP printers contain a number of security issues.

I've had fun sending commands to printers a few years ago, its a 
lot of fun   :-)

depends why you're playing with that... I was just hacking my printer 
for fun... trying to build a print manager... that's another story 
 ;-)

http://www.exploringbinary.com/java-hangs-when-converting-2-2250738585072012e-308/


Interesting. Java has the same flaw that PHP had with a specific 
number.

a good design characterizing itself by immediate function transparency.
this is....well...what is it?

Isn't WebOS a Linux variant?

Yes, "a proprietary mobile operating system running on the Linux 
kernel, initially developed by Palm and purchased by Hewlett Packard 
(HP) in 2010."

I'm convinced that HP will succeed to fail with WebOS. Wrong CEO 
and a lot of HP products are mostly crap.

I never liked HP, dunno why :-) I worst thing is, I have no reason 
to hate them :-) But - in big corporate world, I grew-up in IBM land. 
IBM was "frienlie", because of PowerPC = Amiga :-) HP killed Compaq, 
which I liked more. Pity HTC had not enough of money to buy Palm. 
I am not also sure I like the fact that so cool OS as QNX is, is 
owned by RIM. We have BBs here, and I will have one in few months 
too, but BB is being regarded mostly a corporate cell phone.

It is interesting watching someone REALLY use a tablet for "work". 
 One of my lawyers has had an iPad for a while.  I have been telling 
him he can use it with Qtask in a really powerful way, and he finally 
took the 3 minutes that was required to make his life easier.  We 
installed http://readdle.com/(I have been talking to the lead programmer 
for about a year now), and signed into Qtask with it.


Now he can see all his matters, download (and they made it about 
x4 faster than Windows), and now mark up docs, save to Qtask through 
WebDAV.

I personally sitll have no use for a tablet, and I have an iPad which 
I'm about to sell because I simply don't use it.


For me to really use a Tablet I want forward/backwards camera,  10+ 
battery life, G3 and G4 wireless,  an OS that allows me to get to 
the files and Flash.  

(in fact, I''m reminded of how much I hate the iPad and my iPhone 
again LOL).

Yeah Ipad2 will be a "larger iPhone4", so with the 2 cameras.

Yeah, I "done" with iPhone.  It is a GREAT little device for most 
people though.
I'm going Andriod all the way until proven otherwise.

BrianH constantly claims, that we have many things in hands, e.g. 
re Android.

 - this looks like a slight misunderstanding to me. Perhaps, by saying 
 "we have many things in hands" he did not mean the same as you saying 
 "we have many things in hands"?

It's tricky when things get paraphrased. Pekr was closer to my meaning 
in his later message. There are many areas where we can work independently 
of Carl, areas that need attention. We can sync up when the initial 
development is done. There is a lot of work needed before the testing 
phase.

If you are talking about getting actual stuff compiled, not having 
a libr3 basically takes any fun out of it.

Start figuring out the mapping between the host API and the Android 
API, etc. Compiling is a few second process at the end. Writing the 
code will take a bit longer.

And stabbing in the dark without being able to test the code written 
with a quick compile is a very much un-fun process, at least for 
me personally.

I've already started the research, bought the phone and such. My 
limiting factors aren't Carl. And I don't do the incremental development 
with frequent compiling style, I do the write it ahead of time style, 
so am not limited yet by not having a lib in hand.

...Moving this conversation to....................hmm.............. 
we don't have a Group that nails this one....but I'm moving this 
to Android....

getting rid of the CO2, one molecule at a time.

They're taking the timeframe of R3 development to implement a... 
test suite

Perhaps we can use this THREE YEARS, to simply revert to somethign 
like xwindows, or even EPS, which simply works, and make a new web 
that vector and scales, and is small and fast.

That is what I had in mind when I wrote that.  I still own both a 
BW and Colour Next.

uh oh ... consuming the food/water near tokyo for a year is eqivalent 
to one CT scan ... not good

Seems simple enough to me. Wanna cool a nuclear plant? Throw water 
on it :-)

or just construct the pipes and pumps that would use seawater near 
to constantly water it? They transport oil across continets in pipes 
no matter how far the water is, they sould be able to make a constant 
suply in there.

or probably 100 other things that seem better than driving in with 
human controlled firetrucks and flying over with a helicopter pouring 
water on it.

There is probably no money in developing equipment for handling nuclear 
accidents, if one only happens every 25 years, as it just adds to 
the cost of building reactors, reducing the financial incentive to 
build them in the first place. Also even though many reactor designs 
that are supposedly better than the current ones exist on paper or 
are in research, there is apparently not enough people working in 
the field of research and licensing to move such reactors into production.


There are reactor types that work entirely with passive cooling and 
can be evacuated for 72 hours before anything happens, but they are 
still at the research stage.


Putting the reactor in a big hole might be a good idea, but it depends 
on the location and how an earth quake would affect the hole.


It seems that many of these accidents are due to very clear design 
flaws or overriding specific safety procedures. That's a positive 
thing, because it means, it's not impossible to build very safe reactors.

The only thing they seem to robotisize is a Dutch company they asked 
to make aerial photos with those remote controlled geek helicopters

http://www.i-programmer.info/news/150-training-a-education/2188-cmu-drops-oop.html

unfortunately, what I call flat OOP (limited inheritance & polymorphism) 
is very effective and functional programming isn't a substitute for 
OOP.  The fact that the page talks about OOP being anti-modular, 
IMHO, clearly shows a fundamental lack of understanding for that 
paradigm.


the problem here is not OOP, its how people have granted it the "golden 
hammer" status that it never should have gotten in the first place. 
 The problem is that people have diluted the core ideas behind OOP 
by bloating it out of its purity.   


When you look at the huge mess that are the current commercial frameworks 
like java or .net, then it does seems like OOP has somehow failed, 
but in reality, going back to basics and teaching how to leverage 
OOP properly would have been a better decision IMHO.

Hmm, a subset of C and ML. Maybe the anti-modular comment refers 
to modularity in the large, e.g. system modularity, which I agree 
with. 


I'm not sure about bloating out purity though Max. Yes, the three 
legs it stands on are easy enough to list as bullet points, but even 
early works (not going back to Simula's era) like Booch's OOAD talk 
about notations and other heavy additions, along with the view that 
we needed OOP to help manage complexity, because software is inherently 
complex.

when I mentionned purity I guess I should have used a more descriptive 
sentence.


I really meant to say, objects, being used as objects.   nowadays, 
OOP (the paradigm) is used for every part of software, even parts 
for which its ill-suited.


OOP is not about the language, its about the logical step after structured 
programming.   grouping things together.


why stop at OOP, they might as well re-introduce the GOTO as a viable 
pattern.  :-)


OOP when its used without all the "advanced" object patterns, is 
incredibly effective... just look at the Amiga OS which was almost 
totally OO in its layout and use while still being coded in C.

its just plain stupid for a university of this caliber to shrug off 
50 years of CS cause someone high-up doesn't like it.


the grads won't get the training they need for actual real-world 
jobs.

Max, functional programming IS a substitute for OOP. whether it is 
better or worse is a different matter.

(ignoring the issue wether that question even makes sense to ask, 
or wether the factual situation implied is indeed the case)


because the concept transcended it's OO roots and turned out to be 
more generally applicable, or even just _also_ applicable in a different 
context?

It's a bit late for April fool's isn't it ?

Henrik .. it's just a convention!

We have constant daylight savings here. That's why the time in Jakarta 
which is two hours flight to the east of us is one hour behind the 
time here. The sun is at  its highest between 1:00 and 1:30 depending 
on the season.


There was a rumour that the Prime Minister who made the change did 
so because he was fed up with the senior civil servants playing golf 
before going to work.

Isn't it the greatest achievement of a politician to be able to change 
time?

But I've got a book signed by Max Euwe ...

To win of course .. it was a simul

Such a lady was on TV. Her house was saved, but she lost all her 
neighbours

NZ suffered a lot as a result of its anti-nuclear stance ...

I thought it was a modern Dutch disease to forget about the power 
of the sea, but apparently our fish eating cousins on the opposite 
of the earth have fallen to the same folly

Ah .. just create a new religion that observes the tablets .. there 
are other examples of tablet based religions

Burke was a politician ... their statements are always lack clarity

There was a TV documentary produced in the 1980s I think that talked 
what would happen to Christchurch in a major quake

Institutional memory and its failings are common problems in many 
spheresl and once an institution starts making a mistake, it tends 
to repeat it every institutional generation or so.
  Military examples: http://hnn.us/articles/45305.html

   college fundraising examples: http://cooldata.wordpress.com/2011/02/22/data-disasters-courtesy-of-mordac/

Decades ago there was an article I think in Byte magazine about a 
method of backing up by printing it in some type of dense data format 
.. and you could purchase a scanner for about $300 to scan it back 
in again.  Anyone remember this?

No. But for e.g. PDF format allows you to have a 2D "barcode", which 
can hold cca 64KB of data, or so I remember ....

I think Byte did distribute some software that needed a bar code 
to scan in .. perhaps Compute! did as well.  Bit too long ago to 
remember this now

Sure beats sitting for hours at a time typing in program listings!

A datamatrix can hold 2K per bar code .. so we would have to create 
a matrix of datamatrices to store the data we need on a page

he is getting bashed all the time and he replies with a good attitude. 
 I think he just was lucky (had the opportunity and will) about being 
able to license both commodore and amiga from the two different license 
owners at the same time.


If he can give me a better linux experience at a reasonable price 
I might just go and get one.   and yes... having a C64 cased PC *is* 
geeky cool.

This new C64 caught my attention from a Yahoo! Finance article: http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/112510/new-commodore-64-nyt

Let's see if they can actually ship a new machine.

I'm an old Commodore user. My first computer was a VIC-20. Learned 
BASIC on the VIC. Fun times.

There's even a book about it, it seems there is also C, C++, Python 
binding, etc.

and everyone would have a 60 inch OLED screen  :-D

which would still dissipate a lot of heat, so ppl might not want 
it just because it's bigger

I dont' mind the heat... it'll heat the house in one of the 9 months 
I need to   ;-)


bah, they can always get a smaller OLED screen... its still prohibitively 
expensive.
http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-monitors/cat-oledmonitors/

Wow. Recent ACM and IEEE issues have had a number of articles on 
just how fast we've moved to the cloud, and that it will only accelerate. 
They also discuss technical issues that need to be addressed, but 
I don't think any of them have said "the big cloud providers could 
go down for 30 hours."

A few weeks ago I couldn't upload to S3 for a number of days. I was 
gearing up to sort out some unknown new-version incompatibility when 
it just started working again