AltME groups: search

I will unpack mc with a hope it gives a more elaborate message.

Though that message is probably reported by a file system driver, 
it could have a variant with more elavorated messages (i.e. more 
bloated driver).

I could move all these bug reports into a topic.

Also, bug: "cd ~/ntfs_partition_mounted/<TAB><TAB>" displays Cyrillic 
letters of file names OK (as a list), but "ls <the same folder>" 
gives ????????? instead of cyrillic letters.

mc reports Permission denied (13). /var/log/kernel reports assertion 
failure in ntfs_clear_inode under ntfs_write_inode : kfree of memory 
that was not kmalloc-ed. And subsequent failures in a form of stack 
traces.

Also got a Permission denied (13) while attempt to copy a kernel 
log file to ext3 partttion. Under root.

It may seem that I've found a sources glitch with my mouse. A kernel 
log reports "IMPS2 mouse found" which means that appserver/appserver/ps2mouse/ps2mouse.cpp 
detected an Intellimouse PS/2 mouse. Maybe developers had no Intellimouse 
to test stuff, therefore there's no code setting up the mouse for 
that clause. I.e. it gets detected, but there's no special init (which 
must be there), only the message is printed and the mouse protocol 
is not switched (it must be switched, I guess).

Ahh very simple... build install Syllable. But that will fetch Syllable 
from a remote cvs, no?

Ah found a doc.

I'll fetch and install.sh a development build.

With a hope that build instructions will be there...

Ahh. "3.9 Building the Syllable base system" at http://syllable.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/syllable/syllable/system/apps/utils/Builder/README
: "At the time of writing, it is not possible to give a definitive
instruction for building the entire Syllable base system." :(((

At the time of writing, it is not possible to give a definitive
instruction 
for building the entire Syllable base system.
 :(((

And to run the system with a modified ps2mouse.cpp ?

It could also be a problem in the interfacing between Syllable, CoreUtils 
and the NTFS driver. Maybe it should communicate somewhere that Unicode 
is wanted

Section 3.6, "Building a single system module", is what you need

Fixed!!! See the patch on a developer mailing list.

pppd options syntax seems to be common between many Unices, but a 
eth0 option  is port-specific issue

rp-pppoe.so
 is a separate file missing from ppp-beta1.zip.

If you look for documentation of a version around five years old, 
it should match this version

This seems to be a query: pppd 2007 manuals

Yes, we need many re-ports, unfortunately. We've always tried to 
centralise development as much as possible, but there's still much 
chaos in a volunteer project

In Linux, PPPoE support is a kernel module, separate from pppd. I 
don't know if that's the Roaring Penguin implementation, possibly 
not

The Syllable package also has a kernel module. I would guess it's 
a port from the Linux module

Ah. I got it. I will try to specify that "ppp/if" as a substitute 
for rp-pppoe.so.

It's a kernel module, not a user space library

Kaj: there is a way to specify speed. When you pass a natural number 
as an option to pppd, it considers it as a speed (baud rate) setting.

Syllable pppd complained about _pty_ having a 0 baud rate setting, 
which is invalid condition and pppd exits. Therefore I added a speed 
option.

But a virtual terminal pty0 is not what we want --- we need Ethernet 
card instead of pty. And to specify an Ethernet card, LFS instructions 
use "plugin rp-pppoe.so eth0"

I will try specifying "if" there, nevertheless. "man pppd" AFAIR 
says it's a privileged mode library

ppp_if is the kernel interface. It should be a virtual network interface. 
Could you check that it's installed in /system/drivers/net/if/ ?

I vaguely remember two PPPoE implementations, and it seems you can 
choose between user space RP and a Linux kernel module, where pppd 
seems to have an emulation for the RP library using the kernel module

I'll be away for a short time to check if we have any notes in our 
Syllable AltME space

We've always thought we had this PPPoE implementation, and there 
were supposed to be configuration instructions floating around, but 
I can find nothing but confusion about them. I'm starting to wonder 
if we ever had PPPoE. It seems more likely this is just a PPP virtual 
network module, without source

Kaj: A lot of errors. One of them is #error Unknown method to access 
raw Ethernet frames

I am currently not a specialist in TCP IP/ethernet internals...

Very true: "[A] problem with it is that none of these competing [applications 
and non-integrated subsystems] choices have even matched the quality 
of the integrated systems that we admire."

This matches my large-scale expectations for a desktop environment 
of the future: deep integration at all aspects.

I'll try to install Sy on a virtualbox...

Reported on a forum.

...relocating my Syllable qemu image from Lubuntu into gNewSense. 
1) Lubuntu's LXDE often ignores mouse clicks, and 2) i feel more 
comfortable on a wholly free sotfware, as my home PC is a hobby PC.

It would be great. Syllable is most popular in Russia, so there still 
seems to be a real use case for PPPoE there

It looks like we never got the PPPoE functionality from Arno on top 
of PPP, not even binary. It's possible that he had a port of the 
Linux kernel driver for PPPoE

For a total of 3 (three) PPPoE Internet providers.

Do they give you a router that you can plug into without PPPoE?

An ADSL provider gave a small D-Link box, I don't know its function. 
And Ethernet providers didn't give any routers, just gave an end 
of an Ethernet cable.

You get a sort of family box, such as a D-Link, that handles the 
connection method and provides a standard ethernet hub for the whole 
house

Routers you can buy separately all have PPPoE capability for a number 
of years

In the Russia, there is normally one computer per family, and in 
some cases a few computers per family.

I consider the following features of Syllable as its strongest points: 
1) Simplicity, and 2) having a precise target: desktop OS. Targetlessness 
makes a bad thing to operating systems... (Though I didn't think 
too much on strongest points, and I don't know much.)

Kaj: could you draw a total Syllable high-level architecture overview 
diagram (i.e. levels and subsystems)? Is such a diagram present at 
Syllable docs?

Such a diagram could be published on a Syllable development site, 
in the About section.

However, if you can have multiple installations, development work 
is best done on the development build. The kernel headers have changed 
a lot, which affects the source code of system modules

If you want to install a development build, you may want to wait 
a week. I intend to have a new one for the Syllable Conference coming 
weekend

We don't have a Syllable architecture diagram. It would be nice to 
have one, but unfortunately, I have many other priorities. However, 
much BeOS documentation applies to Syllable, especially the overall 
architecture. Haiku keeps a lot of such documentation, such as the 
BeBook

I prefer to work with stable version first, to not encounter clashes 
with newborn bugs. If I get to anything working, I would like to 
merge it with the development version. So I will not currently install 
a development version. I have one computer with four hard drives 
and multiple partitions, one QEMU Syllable installation, and one 
native HDD Syllable installation.

I've tested Haiku. 1) It does not have pppoe out of the box, and 
afair on its forums there is an unfulfilled request for pppoe. 2) 
Haiku uses VESA mode on my machine, supports more modes than Syllable, 
and is MUCH MUCH faster re: windows dragging with mouse than Syllable. 
Haiku reports: VESA version = 3.0, capabilities 1. Haiku allows for 
1280x1024x32 mode while Syllable only allows 1280x800 mode and shows 
a black screen in 1280x1024 mode.

Processors will evolve to provide a fast zero-copy read-only safe 
access to kernel's memory for usermode processes.

They're quite alike and their development state is also quite alike. 
I can't really list all the details, as I only test Haiku once every 
few years or so, when they make a new alpha release

And Kaj, now honestly you can tell me (decide for yourself, as this 
group is web public), why some ppl (or it's actually just one person) 
blames you from demotivating others? I always wonder, how such a 
thing as REBOL can make core developers to leave? What do you think 
about the topic? (not neccessary belonging into vent)

As for Syllable vs Haiku - I am not sure those can be compared, community 
wise. Feature wise maybe, but I expect Haiku community being vital,no? 
On the other hand, as for all the alternative OS developmens - what 
is their target? Just a hobby? With tonnes of mobile devices out 
there, is there any chance they can find their commercial niche?

That's a very long story. I can't speak for the motivation of the 
Haiku developers, and I can't predict the future of Syllable, so 
I won't try

People leave volunteer projects all the time, and it's very easy 
for a troll to make it seem like it has something to do with the 
people remaining. Suffice it to say that this is motivated by their 
own feelings of inferiority, and far beside the truth

I'm releasing a new Syllable Desktop development build tomorrow. 
Here's a torrent download:

If Red/System takes a long time to be rewritten in Red, it might 
be an option to get it to run on R3, so it would run on Syllable 
Desktop

I would want an assoc to be able to have any string type as a key 
and words as well, at least.

The main advantage a hash has over an assoc is that you aren't limited 
to simple key-value records, you can use longer records.
 - yes, that is the domain where hash! should be better

...as useful as I've found hash indexes to lists to be
 - do you have a short sample code you can post?

I also would like to see an example fo "hash indexes to lists". So 
far I have not yet see a situation where this is better than just 
a single key value mapping.

related: will we get a native 'append ? If such speed-isues are now 
important, we should notstick with that important thing as meazzine?

Jamie, that was referring to using a hash as a table rather than 
as an index. If you use a hash rather than a block for your table, 
all of your searches would be faster without needing any seperate 
indexes. The only way to have the speed of searching a block be comparable 
would be to keep it sorted and use a binary search (what RebDB does 
I think), but that doesn't help much with multiple keys that require 
different sorting orders.


On the other hand, I've been sold on the idea that when you use a 
hash as an index (rather than the table), you are basically using 
it like an assoc, so using a structure optimized for that behavior 
would probably be best.

As for the hash (or assoc) index and list data combo, it has some 
advantages. When you are inserting and removing data a lot lists 
have a known speed benefit but the real advantage as far as indexes 
are concerned is in how lists handle series offsets (I'm using the 
word offset here because I'm using the word index to refer to the 
external hash/assoc index).


Blocks encode their offsets as a number offset from the beginning 
of the series:

>> a: [a b c]
== [a b c]
>> b: skip a 2
== [c]
>> index? b
== 3
>> insert next a 'd
== [b c]
>> b
== [b c]
>> index? b
== 3

List offsets are pointers to the associated list element.

>> a: make list! [a b c]
== make list! [a b c]
>> b: skip a 2
== make list! [c]
>> index? b
== 3
>> insert next a 'd
== make list! [b c]
>> b
== make list! [c]
>> index? b
== 4


If you are indexing your data and your data in in a block, you need 
to update your index with almost every insertion and removal because 
the references to latter positions of the block in the index will 
be invalid. With list insertion and removal, external references 
are likely to still be valid unless the referenced elements themselves 
are deleted. If you are sure to delete the reference from the index 
(or replace it with nones) the rest of the index should be OK. New 
index references can just be tacked on the end, or put into the first 
empty entry. This makes live indexes a lot more practical.


On the down side, if you are using lists and they are long enough 
to make linear searches impractical, you really do need an external 
index for them to be useful. Also you need to balance the overhead 
and complexity of keeping the indexes updated against their benefit. 
This technique is not for the faint of heart unless you can get some 
guru to do algorithms for you.

I am confused by some terms in REBOL 3. Can I say:

* A component is a plug-in.
* A plug-in is a component.
* A component consists of at least one module.

You might want to wait for some more information about modules to 
be revealed before asking that question yet. As it is now, components 
are compile-time features of REBOL 2 that can be included or excluded, 
enabled or disabled, in one chunk when building a version of REBOL. 
Only RT and SDK licensees have any control over that.


Plugins and modules are features of REBOL 3 that haven't been documented 
yet (maybe not finalized either). It is unknown whether REBOL 3 will 
even have components at all, or whether they will be replaced by 
modules or plugins.

Try a search on Carl's blog (not R3 blog) with the word : "module 
". You will see a dozen of answers. See http://www.rebol.net/docs/modules.html, 
also. A first step to learn about modules.

But don't forget that those references are to an older proposal for 
modules that was based on a different set of internals than REBOL 
3. If even the syntax for modules is similar to that listed in the 
old proposals, it would be surprising. It is almost certain that 
the semantics will be different, as the underling REBOL semantics 
are certainly going to be different.

A design question: "If we allow a function-local return, is it ever 
the case that we have a recursive usage of the function that  may 
request a return from different instances of the recursion?"

I think we don't need such a feature

You're always at least three steps ahead of me, but my head hurts 
just thinking about it (a return from different instances of the 
recursion). :-)  


What about generators, like in Icon, that step through alternatives? 
I've never used Icon for real, just tinkered a bit, and that powerful 
feature seems to lead away from readability. I also don't have an 
example of how it might be done in REBOL, or if it applies to your 
question. 

I'm a big help, aren't I? :-)

Ladislav, I don't have time to think it all to the end, but an advise: 
Keep it simple!


I know, it's a very hard goal to reach, because we don't want to 
cut off possibilities. If it's possible for someone new to the language 
to use a feature like "function-local return" right away with expected 
result, and still the advanced programmer can use the feature in 
a way maybe not obvious at first, but that makes good sense, then 
it might be perfect.


But don't make the advanced programmer happy, if it'll make things 
difficult for the newbie.


recursive usage of the function that may request a return from different 
instances of the recursion

 sounds complicated at first. I think, you're right. We probably don't 
 need such a feature. If the code (C source) become simpler by including 
 the feature in recursion, then you might consider it though.

petr, sure it's running on Carl's computer. it has probably been 
for a while. it'll be more interesting when it starts working outside 
of his computer too ;)

lol, we should ask carl to keep a video camera in is studio maybe 
;)

Someone send Carl a webcam, please! ;-)

Oh, he already has a webcam!!! Here's a snapshot from it: http://www.bronzelady.com/ARMANI/fantasia.jpg

if those were the methods of development, I would not have any trust 
in a REBOL3 release :-)

then again, Arthur C. Clarke said "Any sufficiently advanced technology 
is indisinguishable from magic." What if wizards like Gandalf or 
witches really are people from a distant future? :-)

Michael Crichton reused the idea in "Prey"

In that novel, the nano-bots couid only be destroyed in the final 
chapter by a bunch of peasants with flaming torches.

Hang on, no: it was a bunch of techies with thermic lances. But they 
didn't use REBOL to program the little critters.

Hmm, spaghetti coding: when I think about it, this is a step in that 
direction, yes.

Regarding the example Volker wrote: yes, it is a way how to do similar 
things, but it differs - Catch/Throw ignore contexts, so the behaviour 
is not equivalent, although it looks so

Contexts are a good point. Spagetti: oi agree. Hard to see there 
is a hidden return when looking in 'f. But maybe 'catch could use 
contexts, or would that be overkill? Or, catch, explicit 'equal? 
and rethrow otherwise? (or was it 'same? have to look on the ML ;)

Ladislav: could you give an example of a controlfunction where it 
would be useful ? Now I know what it means, but don't have an example 
in mind, when/how I would use it. Nevertheless, I'm always for having 
concepts in the language which make things possible, which otherwise 
would be hard to achieve (or just by doing some tricks with other 
language constructs - note! doesn't necessarily mean the catch example 
- can't judge this). If a normal user won't be affected and it's 
ok with Carl and the implementation - why not having it?

Guessing: in recursion one typically goes into a function, guess 
a few ifs deep, does some work and returns. 
 either n > 0 [do-work exit][recurse n - 1]

If that is long, one ants to split that in multiple functions, indirect 
recursion
  f: func[n][  some-checks-or-return  g-checks n]
  g: func[n][either n > 0 [do-work exit/from f][f n - 1]
And that is not possible, one can only exit 'g itself.

example of a control function where it would be useful: control functions 
usually have to ignore non-local returns (rethrow them or whatever 
we call the behaviour), because they are meant for different purposes. 
If we want/need to use return in a control function, we have to use 
a specific (local) return to discern it from non-local returns

so the purpose of local return in a control function may be the same 
as the purpose of ordinary return in ordinary functions

anyway, this is a design stage, so the things may change as I understood

so the question or discussion is mainly about these two distinct 
types of return and not something else .... because to me it looks 
(outside of this use), also quite disturbing or weird if people start 
to leave a nested functions suddenly to somewhere maybe not immediately 
visible

MAybe some hinting in the control-func? How about a 'catch which 
knows its function-name? and throw/to res 'func-name? Would still 
be short. Although if he have
 a -> b -> c 
and c return to a, 'b must call in that way too.

The macros are just a way to do syntactic-enhancement. In a sense 
they are just templates to basic constructs.  But this templates 
are quite 'smart'

I've been wondering about an extension to EXTRACT as I haven't been 
able to find this particular functionality anywhere else. If it exists, 
then I'm wrong and you can ignore this.


I would like to propose adding a /size refinement to set the number 
of values extracted at each point. This would make it very easy to 
split a string in equal-sized chunks. It could also be used to retrieve 
equal sized parts of a set of database records. Combining this with 
/index, I think this could be very useful.

Here's how I would like it to work:

>> block: [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9]
>> extract block 2
== [1 3 5 7 9]
>> extract block 4
== [1 5 9]
>> extract/index block 2 2
== [2 4 6 8 none]

The refinement at work:

>> extract/size block 4 2
== [[1 2] [5 6] [9 none]]
>> num: to-string 123456789
== "123456789"
>> extract num 3
== [#"1" #"4" #"7"]
>> extract/size num 3 1
== ["1" "4" "7"]
>> extract/size num 3 2
== ["12" "45" "78"]
>> extract/size num 3 3
== ["123" "456" "789"]
>> extract/size num 3 5
== ["12345" "45678" "789"]
>> extract/size/index num 3 5 2
== ["23456" "56789" "89"]
>> extract/size num 3 12
== ["123456789"]

/size would always return a block of series.

Looks like it could be useful Henrik. I might call the refinement 
/part, to match other funcs. For the case of splitting a series into 
equal-sized pieces, or a fixed number of pieces, here's what I use: