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or a block [last-name "Santilli"]

but that is overally problem of Rebol - while with other languages, 
e.g. python, he is willing to import particular library, with rebol 
he just states, that such a thing should be inside ...

while he is negative, the positive thing for me is, that his opinion 
means, he likes compact design of Rebol in fact, and regards it being 
a platform in itself :-)

your friend Bobik didn't really have a good understanding of Rebol.

graham, yes many people try to use a new language like they've always 
done before... in any C derivative that works... cause basically 
you aren't doing anything differerently just writting it differently 
(java, perl, python)  but in others, you have to adapt and well... 
it doesn work!

trying to use french grammar with german words... wont work, obviously. 
 although they both have a similar male/female noun particularity.

What's the problem with sessions? I'm not using PHP native sessions, 
It's just cookies anyway, you send something which identifies it 
on the other side. If someone say, that Rebol is bad, because there 
are no sessions, must be totally crazy. You don't even use cookies, 
you can send the id as a POST/GET variable. With Rebol I have much 
more control over the process. You can make SERVER in Rebol, but 
You cannot do that in PHP. So what, everything has it's own purpose.

I've just added a script to REBOL.org that offers session support 
in a CGI environment:

http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/view-script.r?script=acgiss.r

Documentation: http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/documentation.r?script=acgiss.r

And, yes, Petr, it really isn'y magic......Though I hope it is debugged. 
Please let me know otherwise.

Thanks C. It is really easy isn't it?

The main differences between your approach and mine that I can see 
are:
1. you hold all data in one file; mine uses one file per session

2. you create just a cookie; mine creates a session record in which 
the CGI script can save data

Either way, the scripts demonstrate that the problem is really trivial 
-- with the one need to create unique and hard-to-guess session ids. 
 We've both put some serious code into doing that.

example - try site:http://www.jablunkovsko.czbowling .... in google 
- only one link will show, whereas I would like the result to include 
(go to menu) "sport a relaxace"/bowling ....

petr, why not just including a simple html links somewhere in the 
page? you can even hide it with js, so that a user does not see the 
links, but a spider will.

yes, that should work ... although I can imagine hiding the links 
... I will try to look at sitemap protocol - seems to be a standard 
...

Javascript only links will stop pretty much every spider.....So you 
won't appear in many search engines at all.

You will also be breaking a lot of people's assistive technologies 
(like screen readers for visually disabled people).

Best to have a site that is fully navigable via plain HTML links. 
Then add the clever stuff on top of that.
Google's advice:

http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=35769
http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/
***

A high score here usually means you have  a person-friendly and spider 
friendly website:
http://www.cynthiasays.com/

Is building and submitting a purpose built crawler page an outdated 
technique?

Search engines like to index things a user can see.

Thye get suspicious of anything that appears to be built just for 
the.....No surprising given how much they have been gamed by SERPS 
spammers.

Having a human-readable site map has the same effect as a crawler 
page *and* taks you a long way towards having a site that is navigable 
by people under any conditions.
***

The google-approved method of doing a crawler page is to use what 
they call a sitemap:
http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/topic.py?topic=8476

Someone could easily modify Carl's site-checker to emit a google 
sitemap:

http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/view-script.r?script=site-check.r

How to reset variables sent from a form using POST method without 
redirecting into new page? I mean how to prevent, that using reload 
will resend the values again. I usualy just set location to other 
page after processing, but now I have case when I need to display 
informations without change of the location. I think I've seen somewhere 
that it's possible using http response, but cannot find it:(

I'm not sure of a single http header designed for this purpose.  
There are cache controls, but how long to set them for?  Or etags/if-none-match, 
but would that prevent the browser's resend warning?  Or a token 
value in your form that expires after one submission, though also 
would not prevent the resend warning.  Or sessions?

Etags should work like this: client requests a resource, server returns 
resource and etag header.  Client again requests resource, but this 
time sends if-none-match header with etag value and server can then 
decide whether to process the request or send 304 not changed.  I 
haven't explored this much so don't know how well it's supported 
-- I'm not sure how appropriate the solution is, but would involve 
the least server activity.

the problem is, that if you are posting large file, it's not too 
good, as all file is first uploaded again and than you can decide, 
if you want it to store for example. I though I sow something, but 
maybe it was just a fata morgana, I thing, that the best is the redirect. 
My problem is, that I'm trying to connect on database, which was 
not designed by me, so there is no crypted id for the data I upload, 
just incremental integer, which I don't want to use, as I would give 
chance to everybody go thru the data just inserting other numbers. 
I have to take a risk, modify the original database adding ne column 
with crypted id and redirect to the uploaded data using this id. 
And hope, that I will find and modifie all places, where is this 
database used:(

Hmm, im using http-tools , I login to a page which sends a cookie 
which I then have to send back everytime, however the cookie seems 
to expire after one post :/

charles, welcome to reality !  In theory rebol supports many protocols 
but in practice the support is incomplete and it has been incomplete 
for a long time. check rebol.org, there are several patches for cookies 
support

yes, I am sending it each time, but for some reason it seems to only 
like the first request, after that it expires , or something else 
is going wrong ... Id really like to see a client with transparent 
support for cookies

are you getting a redirect from the second page ... that is followed 
without the cookie

Yes, I did, and if you scroll a little bit up, you can find the link 
easilly - it's in big yellow block of text:) And I agree, that it 
would be good to have cookies support directly in Rebol, as my cookies-daemon 
is relly hard hack I cannot be sure that it would not rewrite some 
future http protocol updates

Not quite an email address validator, but the REBOL.org uses an email 
address spotter [contributed by Andrew Martin] to find and obsfucate 
email addresses in ML messages, etc.

You could use the same basic parse patterns to identify / validate 
email addresses. 

I haven't checked RFC 822 in detail, so it is likely that Andrew's 
code is more liberal than the actual spec, but it could be a starter.
Would you like a copy of the function?

thanks a lot :-)

it's probably a reason why my spam has increased on gmail :(

As Graham says, the addresses are munged on REBOL.org unless you 
are a logged-on member of the Library. That doesn't stop a spammer 
grabbing them, but it does reduce the risk considerably.
**
Thanks for the spelling correction!

Hi,

I need another short advice :-)

do you prefer:


- directly accessible menu menu: http://www.creactive.cz/work/xidys/online/

or


- initially collapsed menu: http://www.creactive.cz/work/xidys/xidys_web_hp.jpg

   - with mouse-over effect: http://www.creactive.cz/work/xidys/xidys_web_hp2.jpg

   - and after clicking an item: http://www.creactive.cz/work/xidys/xidys_web_sec.jpg

(dis)advantages to both:


According to company working on our website, there is something like 
slight barrier, when user needs to click, and wait where the click 
does take him/her. According to them, users prefer scrolling. OTOH 
the menu can get long, and e.g. e-shop direct icon is not visible 
(nor is last section), and there is no easy other place, where to 
put such an icon (direct link).

thanks a lot :-)
-pekr-

It's trade-offs Petr!

Dropdown/pullout menus take less screen space but need more clicks, 
and may be less accessible.

Too many visible options on one screen make it difficult too see 
the important links.
Its not easy to get the balance right on the first try.

That's why usability testing is needed, and why usability consultants 
can make a good living.

Pekr, I prefer the expanded menu, immediately available. I don't 
care if it's two or three pages long. If the section titles are bolded 
(eg. "Internet a site", "Kiosky" etc.) and obvious, then reading 
them while scrolling down the page is no problem. And I think your 
search bar should go at the top, to solve the problem of being too 
far down to be visible initially.

remark MOD will allow all you are saying above  :-)  that's the point. 
 the advantage is that you can hide and integrate all those tricks 
on a programmable per site/ per page / per element .  since each 
tag receives the content its handling, if your outer tag can handle 
caching on the server side, well just do so.


remark changes HOW you can do your tags cause they are NESTED.  and 
can return dynamic stuff... not just html.

what I want to do is build a tag which caches its parsed data unless 
a trigger even occurs.   this would, for example allow you to cache 
parts of pages or whole pages... depending on where you put the <cache! 
> tag.

simply put - open your template in a browser - does it display its 
content flawlesly? (without interpretting templat). If not, than 
it is not what I want :-)

well, that will depend on what you mean by template and what your 
template contains... if you talk about a frame (or various sub parts 
of a page) which hold html, yes remark can have these with no remark 
tags within... so you can linkup an html page based on artists work, 
and add up your dynamically created content.  But remark even allows 
you to programatically include those little html parts at any level, 
so one of your dynamic tags could in fact be loading just menu titles 
which which your gfx artist created manually.  but their placement 
or the choice of which set to load would be controled within the 
dynamic tags.

the cache! tag would be a wrapper you add to some "constructor" page.. 
the actual elements which compose your page, are still visible and 
useable directly.

remark has a way to add tags OVER your page so that your source remains 
unchanged... that is where you could put a complete page cache if 
you wished.

the cache is not yet done (cause it makes no sense in a static env)... 
but I count on trying to add it to the default toolset in remark 
v2

Guys I have a short question: Is there a simple and fast way to avoid 
that a html-formular is position back to the top after a drop-down 
box has been selected which triggers a server call?

Any DOM experts here ?

I have a frameset with two frames, and in the first frame there is 
a menu implemented with <ul>.

I am wondering if I can move the <ul> menu out of the frame into 
the top level document. (The frame exists only for the menu, so I 
should be able to size it to zero so that it does not obscure the 
top-level doc.)

This would mean I could keep the website frameset-oriented without 
doing the work of converting it to single pages. And frames allow 
pure HTML to include code efficiently.

I found document.body.removeChild(elem), but I get lost when I try 
to identify the new location and createElement.
Can anybody help with that ?

Frustration: The DOM inspector says the frame has a property "contentDocument" 
but I can't seem to get at it.

what a heap of crap

load the jquery library into your site and make your life much easier, 
it makes manipulating DOM a kid game 8) http://jquery.commaybe look 
also for the accordion or tree plugin for your menu

Thanks, WIll. A very nice suggestion. I will wait until my optimism/web-technology 
faith returns :)

Here's another question that I wish I didn't have to ask.

This doesn't work. I can't find how to reference navList even though 
it's in the same page.
What is the way to reference navList correctly ?

<html>
<body>

<ul id="navList" >
	<li>Hello</li>
</ul>


<a href="javascript:alert('width: ' + navList.name);">navList width</a>

</body>
</html>

Hooray! found the answer

<a href="javascript:alert('width: ' + document.getElementById('navList').offsetWidth);">navList 
width</a>

Not so simple... it doesn't work in a frame for some reason.

Aha !  Tracked it down. In my frame I had a BASE tag. This caused 
the javascript error:

Error: document.getElementById("navList") has no properties

Source File: javascript:alert('width: ' + document.getElementById('navList').offsetWidth);

<html>
<head>

	<base target="_top" /> 

</head>
<body>

<ul id="navList" >
	<li>Hello</li>
</ul>


<a href="javascript:alert('width: ' + document.getElementById('navList').offsetWidth);">navList 
width</a>

</body>
</html>

Hello, about JSON.r, the one on rebol.org is old, here is the latest 
http://www.json.org/json.r


but working with the flickr api I found hopefully a bug, here is 
the patch:

--- http://www.json.org/json.r
+++ (clipboard)
@@ -188,7 +188,7 @@
     ]
     ex-chars: charset {\"}
     chars: complement ex-chars
-    escaped: charset {"\>bfnrt}

+    escaped: charset {"\>bfnrt/}	;!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!added 
"/" otherwise this returned from flikr! give error {{"name":"Taiwan 
Panorama \/ \u53f0\u7063\u5bec\u8996\u91ce"}} 
     escape-table: [
         {\"} "^""
         {\\} "\"
@@ -198,6 +198,7 @@
         {\r} "^M"
         {\n} "^/"
         {\t} "^-"

+        {\/} "/"	;!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!see 
above
     ]
     digits: charset "0123456789"
     hex-c: union digits charset "ABCDEFabcdef"

There's an approach that I'd like to experiment regarding web UI 
generation. The idea would be to consider the web page as a View 
target and build a View-like rendering engine able to process face 
objets and renders them as HTML. So it would be possible to generate 
HTML UI with VID directly. The DIV tag would be a good candidate 
to emulate a View face.

The events system would be splitted in two parts :


1) A small part in JS on client-side catching keyboards and mouse-events 
and sending them asynchronously to the server.


2) A server-side part emulating the View event propagation engine 
through the face objects hierarchy.

Wait, no. That approach would fall over when you run into network 
latency issues. It would work great on a LAN, but not over the internet.

On the other hand, you could build a View-like rendering engine in 
JavaScript itself.

With the DOM for regular UI elements, and Canvas for Draw once it 
is implemented more widely. The browser is a little weak right now, 
but that is improving, finally.

Brian: true, network latency might be a show-stopper for such kind 
of apps over the internet.

View-like engine in JS : that looks very doable, but I'm afraid the 
result might be too slow. I've worked some time with a rendering 
engine built in JS, and it was just a little slower than native UI, 
but not very scalable (performances dropping rapidly with a growing 
number of "faces"). It was BackBase : http://www.backbase.com.

So maybe the solution would be to handle those events that need fast 
response like typing text in a field, or mouse-over gfx effects, 
on the client-side and send others to the server.

If we are going to use a JS framework, I insist in using jQuery, 
the core is really mature,fast and stable, it has the syntax that 
more resemble the way we think in rebol. http://docs.jquery.com/Main_Page

if we don't expect to emulate View 100%, but rather we do a Web VID, 
i think this can definitely be done in JS, with the server only to 
access data.

Will, I'll updated my JSON copy script here with your changes, but 
Romano hasn't been around in a long time, AFAIK, so someone (I guess 
maybe you or me) should get joint ownership of the script on REBOL.org 
to update it.

Do you have a test case for the change?

Should > be in the list of escaped chars? It doesn't look like it 
from the spec. I'll have to check my notes to see if that was added 
for a specific reason.

without the patch it won't work once it encounter "\/" do you really 
need a link?

I've noticed some websites like Amazon don't seem to have a log out 
/ sign out button any more. What's happening ? How are they doing 
the logout ?

Will, Here is the answer from Douglas Crockford:


It is optional. It is allowed for the case where JSON is embedded 
in HTML 
SCRIPT, where 
</" is not allowed, but "<\/" is.

There are no comments in JSON."


So, on the parsing side, we should look for it, but on the generation 
side, \/ is really ugly if we generate it everywhere. If we don't 
generate it, you're stuck if you need it, so we probably need a refinement. 
Either that, or just accept the ugliness.


I'm not sure if I want to remove comment support either. Just a gut 
feeling they may come back.

Gregg, thanks for digging this deeply, I would suggest just adding 
it, no refinements, at the end it is a transport not meant to be 
human readable (unicode escapes aren't more readable ;) so no need 
to think if refinement is needed case by case.

I got a note from Doug that he's confident comments won't be coming 
back, so I'm going to do another update for that.

Re age differences; Typing speed?  More detail oriented than the 
flash me this tlash me that generation?  Umm, retired with more free 
time?  But an interesting stat.    I wonder if they thought about 
adding a developer category ... 29 hours a day.  Reichart alone would 
probably skew the statistics.  :)

Is evolution a religion http://www.icr.org/article/455/

What do I need to read from a given URL (assume web-page) to find 
out when the page was modified? Is there a way?

There's a mezz wrapper for that :

Does anybody know how I can access the currently displayed URL in 
a web-browser from an external application? I just want to get back 
the URL of the "current" shown web-page in an active window.

Hmm... sounds like a lot of work but OK I will see how I come along.

Robert, are the pages you are accessing static, dynamic or a combination 
of the two?

I don't think the method Doc provided will work for dynamically generated 
pages.  For dynamic content  you will need to use something like
	checksum http://www.rebol.com

However, you will need to maintain a list of the last time a page 
was checked.

here is a more complete example that will save url of all browser 
windows to a file:
http://daringfireball.net/2003/02/save_and_restore_safari_urls

Will, cool. Thanks. Can such a script be started from Rebol?

this is part of a script I use to monitor and restart  my vpn and 
ssh tunnel :
connect: does [
		call rejoin [{osascript -e "tell application \"System Events\"
			tell current location of network preferences
				set vpn to current configuration of service \"VPN\"
				if not connected of vpn then
					tell application \"AlmostVPNProMenuBar\"
						stop (profile named \"default\")
					end tell
					connect vpn
					delay 6
					tell application \"AlmostVPNProMenuBar\"
						start (profile named \"default\")
					end tell
				else
					tell application \"AlmostVPNProMenuBar\"
						stop (profile named \"default\")
					end tell
				   disconnect vpn
					delay 6
					connect vpn
					delay 6
					tell application \"AlmostVPNProMenuBar\"
						start (profile named \"default\")
					end tell
				end if
			end tell
		end tell"}]
	]

There was a Google search API (using SOAP), but they withdrew it. 
This page  may lead to alternatives:
http://code.google.com/apis/gdata/clientlibs.html

I'm searching for a good free log-file analyzer (whatever that means 
;-)). Any hints? I know:

- Analog
- Webializer

But both are not that good IMO.

this one is pretty complete, not free but you can get a new trial 
key every 30 days http://summary.net/

but it also has it's shortfalls.  one of my coworkers was experimenting 
with a timing plugin this spring

Google Analytics requires you to add a few lines of Javascript to 
every page that you want GA to track.
That limits the GA stats to user-agents that execute javascript.

#[none] means that the header was not there. if it's there, then 
it's going to be a string.

Steve, could you be a little more specific.  There are a lot ways 
to parse your parse question :)


For example, are you asking what the "?" and the "&" mean in the 
URL?  Or am I taking too literal?

I asked a broad question because I didn't know what answer I need 
... ;-)


Specifically, this comes out of Opera and when I parse it to HTTP, 
I don't know if I should make a Request of:

Host: sitecheck2.opera.com
Path: /
Target: ?host=www.rebol.net&hdn=SDbXzuPvK4tsiGnHOia5dA==


or some other way, like perhaps Path: none ? and Target: /?host=www.rebol.net&hdn=SDbXzuPvK4tsiGnHOia5dA==

...and at a qualitative level, I think this might be used as a referer...Opera 
does this from the Home Page button.  I don't get it from other browsers.

Youzer...re-installing Opera 9.63 fixed the problem.  Now it works 
perfectly.  My guess is that the sitecheck2.opera.com was revalidated 
by the new install process, so the site allowed a connection.  Dunno, 
just a guess.  A couple days of trying to fix my code went into that 
unsure lesson.

Did you manage to make rebol cgi works?
I mean, is the webserver able to run .cgi script with rebol?

Rebol/core need to be installed on the server, chmoded and you must 
have put the right sheeband at the beginning of the .cgi script.

A simple .cgi script like this one is a good test :

Then I have a file test.rhtml (handler for .rhtml must be configured 
in the webserver) with this content to test magic :

I'll try those suggestions. It's a bit more methodical than what 
I was doing...
Thanks, Dide.

Did you consider QuarterMaster instead? I used to want to go with 
Magic!, but QM is a much more modern design

I've looked at QM but I did not get it. I did not understand what 
it did. Magic seems to provide some basic gui elements that seemed 
like a quick way to build a website. I'll have another look at QM 
though. 

QM runs on Cheyenne?

Chris will correct me if I´m wrong, but I think that´s basically 
the point. :-) QM is a generic framework implementing a Model/View/Controller 
architecture that leaves you free to plug in parts for each, whereas 
Magic! offers a basic set of rigid REBOL web widgets

I have to say, that I don't get that MVC concept at all. It seems 
to me, like some academic head came with that model some time back, 
while reality might be elsewhere. Do you really desing your apps, 
that its fits MVC model? E.g. that famous Ruby and other DB "automatic" 
schemas which are supposed be so cool have to be rudiculous to someone 
who actually knows SQL. Soon after you start reading docs you find 
out, that when you get to more complicated DB schema, they only provide 
you with excuses that you can't have everything. Sometimes frameworks 
work against you :-) Not that I would not understand their advantages 
otoh, hence I am asking, if QM is really so usefull? The thing is, 
that I tried to give it a try several times, and I did not know what 
to do actually, but maybe I am extremely stupid for such stuff, and 
am only able to work with plain cgi/fcgi ...

If there is some full example implementation of some site for e.g., 
I could give it a try ... last time I tried was some year ago or 
so ...

Not mixing - those relate. Does not have QM as a framework an Active 
record like data organisation?

I do agree it takes time to figure out MVC, and I think the terms 
are too much inspired by a technological point of view. It´s really 
about separating the concerns of the usual stakeholders working on 
websites, or applications in general: the programmer/database designer, 
the consultant designing the business logic, the graphics/UI designer 
and the secretary maintaining the content

Would you write 20.000 similar web pages for a web store, or would 
you write one template and store the properties of the goods in a 
database, for example?

Best MVC example: OSX. The thing is not the separation all speak 
about (Model = Date, View = GUI, Control = App logic) but how to 
get it to work together. And this is (normally) done by passing messages 
between these three.


Like you click a button and a "loadrecord" message is sent to the 
Data part. IIRC the nice thing is, that more than one "function, 
object, ..." can react on such a message.