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Faster floats branch released: https://github.com/dockimbel/Red/tree/faster-floats

Mandelbrot
Syllable Server, AMD Athlon XP 1800+ (256 KB L2 cache)
						CPU Time	Relative
C (GCC -O2)				.025		1
C (GCC 4.4.3 i686)		.05			2
Red/System				.11 (0.3)	4
World (complex math)	4 (7)		150
World					6 (9)		250
Boron (i486)			7.5 (10)	300
ORCA (i486)				9 (12)		350
REBOL 3 2.100.111.4.4	9 (12)		350
REBOL 2 2.7.7			11 (13)		450
Ruby 1.8.7.248 (i486)	12 (15)		500

It's a bit strange, because the inner FP code should be identical 
between C and Red/System now. But anyway, it's more than enough for 
now.

i have a green gl window driven by red/s :) nothing more, yet, though 
:)

I have a case where the library wants to use a function that should 
be defined in the program. This doesn't work, apparently because 
Red/System doesn't export the function. The library can't resolve 
the symbol

In any case, a block works in Red/System, so it doesn't get compiled

I don't believe Comment is a function in Red/System as it is in REBOL. 
I think it is more like a compiler directive.

To be more precise, there's a string stage and a block stage in the 
preprocessor. All the compiler directive are processed at the block 
stage. The string stage is just a front-end to handle R2-incompatible 
syntax, like the Red/System hex notation, and count source lines.

as red/s neither supports elf ctors/dtors nor gprof, none if this 
should be needed

Doc - so your sister tweets about the Red development? Cool :-)

Behold, an OpenGL triangle rendered by a Red/System program:
http://earl.strain.at/share/reds-opengl-triangle-20120227.png

Doc, do I understand it correctly, that lists/arrays are now supported 
via 'typed funcitonality, hence structs? How much would it complicate 
red/system to have a native block implementation? :-)

I'm sure Doc will answer this question as: "Red/System is for low 
level system programming, no need to implement blocks unless we need 
it while writting Red".  :)
I think blocks etc. is for Red not for Red/System.

I know. OK, maybe I need an advice. I was looking into some C code 
educatory example, which contained something like:

char multi[5][10];

decomposed to:

    multi[0] = {'0','1','2','3','4','5','6','7','8','9'}
    multi[1] = {'a','b','c','d','e','f','g','h','i','j'}
    multi[2] = {'A','B','C','D','E','F','G','H','I','J'}
    multi[3] = {'9','8','7','6','5','4','3','2','1','0'}
    multi[4] = {'J','I','H','G','F','E','D','C','B','A'}


which gets stored in a memory block of a "0123456789abcdefghijABCDEFGHIJ9876543210JIHGFEDCBA" 
value.


If I would be supposed (for any reason :-), to interface to such 
a construct, I would simply use a pointer in Red, and would be responsible 
to manually decompose/treat the value of arrays, not to break it 
for the C level code?

When I will write app in Red, it will compile to Red/System in the 
first pass, and then to the native code from R/S? So that it means, 
that you write Red in R/S? Hmm, if Carl would release R3 sources, 
it would not help you much, as you plan to write Red in R/S, not 
C?

Arrays might be supported in future though, if we really need them 
for implementing Red.

someone's idea of a banner for red supporters

I like e.g. part of this one -if you would turn the arrows 90 grades, 
it could imitate REBOL prompt sign >> RED - http://www.logofactory.cz/msys/uploads/logos/48.jpg

A simple vector style of Red Riding Hood's hood, maybe with one twinkling 
eye peeking out, and the tag line "Don't be afraid". :-)

( Dorothy in Wizard of Oz and sorry they were ruby red slippers )

We can't work like that imo :-) I went thru the process several times. 
We have to define qualities we want to reflect, etc. But RED, red 
is "just" a color. What can represent that? Something red, perhaps 
:-)

And if anyone finds red, it's a perfect fit ...

Simple 10 minutes creation ...but I don't like how it turned out 
:-) http://xidys.com/pekr/rebol/red-logo1.jpg

What about 

>>RED
talk dialects


the >> is a play on the target image used in REBOL where >> is both 
from a console,and also an arrow head?

Still not there :-) http://xidys.com/pekr/rebol/red-logo2.jpg

http://xidys.com/pekr/rebol/red-logo/

Maybe the Red pill as Doc alludes to. Or let Doc tell us what he 
wants the logo to symbolize.

Those were just tries. Any of the above logo is imo better than what 
Graham originally posted. But I am not satisified either. Here's 
my take, what needs to be considered for the logo to actually "work":


- you should define a brief - namely a description of qualities/characteristics 
of Red. What is Red, what sets it apart, what does it mean to you, 
what should it mean to ppl, what differentiates it from others, etc.


- type of logo - only letters? Letters plus pictogram? Shoul pictogram 
only decorate logo, or is part of the name? Pictograms are often 
related to the business, but I am not sure, if you are easily able 
to relate pictogram to "red", as it is a name of the color. Nor am 
I sure, if pictogram would express a programming language. What I 
would suggest, would be either - pictogram contains "R", which also 
works as a filetype icon. Or pictogram expresses some quality - e.g. 
>> (REBOL/Red prompt), [R] block as one of the main concepts (series)


- color scheme - not much options with something named Red, right? 
:-)


- usability - you should think about the color scheme, and logo in 
various forms - normal, inverse, black&white, icon, letterhead, business 
card, ppt presentation, etc. You can look for inspiration to how 
I aproached 2zone media logo with the agency - http://www.xidys.com/pekr/2zone_media_logotypes/

Peter: a Red roadmap, not Nenad's one :-)

Nenad is still here after the conference. We debugged SDL audio on 
Syllable. It works now, without libc-init workaround, and it wasn't 
the fault of the new libc-init code in Red

If I'm successful, I will write Red bindings to it

What? Why not to pack whole 150GB Linux to 400 KB Red executable?

Sure, but if you want stuff used by many, you shouldn't be using 
REBOL, and certainly not Red

Where one can download the OpenGL binding? Don't you want to put 
the bindings into the Red's github?

Can you give us a tiny taste of the RED code?

Kaj is reporting a success of compiling this software.  He hasn't 
done the binding to Red/system yet?

Yes, there is no Red code yet, and I will only write any if I get 
it to work on Syllable Desktop

Trouble ahead for Red on Windows 8:

I think Kaj means that Red uses trying to create a browser using 
webkit will have problems

Release v0.2.5 is out: http://www.red-lang.org/2012/03/redsystem-v025-released.html

http://red.esperconsultancy.nl/Red-C-library/timeline

As we do the compilation and code generation in one pass in current 
Red/System, we can't look ahead to determine the boundaries of each 
expression in a variadic block of arguments in advance, to be able 
to extract their datatype.

Actually, the single pass nature of Red/System strengthened my assumption 
that the computation would be in natural order

Doc - congrats to 0.2.5 release - nice to hear, that first alpha 
of Red can be here in few weeks, although it will not do much yet 
...

First alpha of Red in a few weeks?  Sounds great!

that's what Doc replied on his blog:


@Thomas: for the very first Red alpha, only memory management, basic 
datatypes and a few natives/actions. Ports and I/O will probably 
be added in following alpha versions, as PARSE. If we don't hit any 
walls, we should have it a few weeks, probably a month.

The first Red will probably have all the capabilities of Red/System, 
so I think it will be able to do quite a lot

Maybe apart to C lib, you might mention in one sentence, that other 
big change for Red/S was addition of float support ...

Implementing basic features for block! datatype support.
. RED - finally :-) How Btiffin says - go Doc, go! :-)

dunno, maybe via type casting? as integer! ... but not sure if it 
works for floats, or only pointers ...

http://static.red-lang.org/red-system-specs.html#section-4.9

Support for converting between integer! and float!/float32! has not 
been implemented yet. The only way to achieve it right now is to 
rely on an external lib (libc?) or implement your own conversion 
routine in Red/System.

FYI, I am making good progress on the Red runtime, but I had to start 
implementing the Red compiler earlier than planned, to be able to 
define more accurately the right runtime API that the compiler needs. 
So at the time that the runtime will be ready, I should have a first 
Red compiler partial implementation working.

Once the Red runtime is more fleshed out I'll see what is still useful 
to add in Red/System

In this DocumentFreedomDay-2012-playlist you can also find the film 
of Kaj's presentation about Red bindings with WebODF, LibreOffice 
and PDF last week in the Royal Library in The Hague, the Netherlands.

I hope Doc is OK and working on RED like mad :-) Last commits are 
12, 16 days old :-)

He said that he has started work on the Red compiler in parallel 
to the Red runtime but isn't ready to commit the compiler to Github 
yet.  He told me that the runtime was likely to change as he was 
developing the compiler, so I guess that he feels that it is not 
worth commiting code that he feels is not stable.

Btw - I also noticed Doc mentioning during the conference, that he 
might make a Red a bit more dynamic than he first thought?

I think he was tallking about  a similar  flexibility as REBOL in 
passing arguments to functions; the programmer can enforce strict 
typing or not.


It will be interesting to see if Red allows the programmer to define 
new types. Red/System does with alias!s for struct!s and enforces 
strict typing. But it doesn't allow the programmer to define other 
types.

Pekr: I am working on the Red compiler mostly these days and I need 
to push further than I thought first in order to more accurately 
define the runtime part. As I want to respect my roadmap, I want 
the runtime to be stable enough to release v0.3.0 with an alpha version 
of Red compiler. Be patient, it's coming. ;-)

User-defined types: yes, that's a desirable feature, but probably 
not in the Red alphas.

so is your blog available even via something like red-lang.blogspot.com?

Is there going to be a built in graphic GUI like in Rebol/View or 
will Red always depend on external graphical libraries for GUI's?

Where I can find the window and linux RED executable?

There is no (public) Red yet, only Red/System in which Red will be 
written https://github.com/dockimbel/Red

Magnusso - Cyphre said, that he has new framework in mind, kind of 
View like, just a bit abstracted, so that it could use different 
backend systems (Cairo, AGG, Skia, Fog ....). But - not sure his 
target is Red. But maybe we convince him to port it for some fee 
:-)

REBOL/View also depends on an external graphics library, namely AGG. 
The difference is currently in the level of integration. Once the 
Red/System compiler linker becomes more capable, for example when 
it can produce libraries or object files, it may be possible to integrate 
graphics libraries as tightly with Red as AGG is integrated with 
REBOL

james - there is no Red yet, just Red/System. And yes, you can kind-of 
create Android apps. But - those are bare-bones linux ARM apps, which 
can run on an Android phone. I tried that on my HTC Sensation. Right 
now, there is no app-store support, nor the ability to link to Android 
API, which would require the JAVA bridge. You can find some info 
here - http://www.red-lang.org/2011/12/arm-support-released.html

Kaj, hate to nitpick, but REBOL/View's AGG library is statically 
linked, so it's not really "external". Static linking for Red would 
be nice.

That's just some minor help to keep you in a positive mood while 
you are fighting new Red barriers :-)

Thanks to all for supporting Red this or that way, hopefully we will 
prevail :-)

Pekr: I am finishing the generation of the intermediary representation 
for the output of Red compiler. I had to change it several times 
as it is uneasy to design properly without all the other pieces ready 
(another chicken and egg problem).


For example, to properly store literals (especially series literals), 
I need some kind of Redbin format, but designing it and implementing 
it now seems like a bit premature (as most types are not defined 
yet). So, I went for a dynamic construction model at run-time for 
now. I'll move literals to Redbin when it will be available.


For Redbin, I want it to be powerful enough to be able to serialize 
the whole state of a running Red program, but I don't know yet to 
what extent it is doable when running native code directly (needs 
some significant research work).


Also, I need to make a few changes to Red/System compiler to better 
integrate witht Red's one, I should finish those changes and release 
them this weekend.

I am moving all my web site and web apps to a new server. Unfortunately, 
I have to change all the DNS entries too, so interruptions might 
occur during the next 24-48h on the following sites:

- cheyenne-server.org
- curecode.org
- static.red-lang.org
- softinnov.org

http://www.osnews.com/story/25716/Syllable_gets_Red_System_bindings_with_C_cURL_SDL_SQLite

I just placed a first draft of a script to help with compiling Red 
scripts on REBOL.org http://www.rebol.org/view-script.r?script=redcompiler.r
No guaranties ;)

Let's make it official: http://static.red-lang.org/birth.png:-)

Normally I do not announce my upload to rebol.org but this time is 
different. I have uploaded an upgraded version of  my interface to 
opengl: http://www.rebol.org/view-script.r?script=opengl-glu-glut-h.r
and I am asking you to insert "GLX_DOUBLEBUFFER" in the block of 
the line: "attrList-def: reduce [GLX_USE_GL GLX_RGBA  GLX_DEPTH_SIZE 
16 GLX_RED_SIZE 4 GLX_GREEN_SIZE 4 GLX_BLUE_SIZE 4 0]"  to see if 
doublebuffer works since in my virtual machine it is not working 
(an empty window is opened and no gl rendering occurs)

Normally I do not announce my upload to rebol.org but this time is 
different. I have uploaded an upgraded version of  my interface to 
opengl: http://www.rebol.org/view-script.r?script=opengl-glu-glut-h.r
and I am asking you to insert "GLX_DOUBLEBUFFER" in the block of 
the line: "attrList-def: reduce [GLX_USE_GL GLX_RGBA  GLX_DEPTH_SIZE 
16 GLX_RED_SIZE 4 GLX_GREEN_SIZE 4 GLX_BLUE_SIZE 4 0]"  to see if 
doublebuffer works since in my virtual machine it is not working 
(an empty window is opened and no gl rendering occurs)

Bas published the videos of my Red presentation on Software Freedom 
Day at the Science Park in Amsterdam:

REBOL is also in there, because the Red and Red/System compilers 
are currently written in it

If Red lang is out in this month, I might be able to put an appendix 
for introduction to RED.

And a book about Red when it is completed would be great.

Congratulation Jerry, I'll do my best to get a first Red alpha out 
this month, so you can add it to the book.

Sorry DocKimbel that I did contribute yet, but I fear I do not understand 
GitHub, I try to find a button to accept changes that were committed 
since I forked Red but I only find the pull request that I suspect 
to be for changes I made to be pulled by others. That could be a 
bad idea ;-)

Did you want good ones to be green or false ones to become red? Both? 
Red-green colorblindness issue for 10% of the popularity.

(Continue from !Cheyenne)

Graham: it would be nice to write OpenDBX binding for Red/System 
too.

But if we can leverage the work for red ....

Doc has (iirc) expressed an interest in adapting R3's port model 
to Red.

There may need to be some tweaks for Red's ports due to the different 
language model though. Don't know for sure yet.

Now with REBOL 3, Boron, and prepared for Red

That's good footprint, isn't it? Not following the discussion - I 
thought you are working on an Enlightenment, not Qt? But maybe I 
mix Syllable and RED efforts?

So what's your Enlightenment effort then? Red only related?

You seem to be skilled in porting various toolkits. No intention 
to port View engine to Red/System? :-)

So I need very good reasons to start such an attempt, and the R3 
View engine has several red flags that we discussed before

what red flags? The licence is not set, and the author and owner 
of the code is Cyphre, not RT, so if it is licence related, we should 
talk to Cyphre imo ... but anyway - wrong group. It is just that 
we are binding to some heavy solutions as GTK, Enlightenment, instead 
of going probably the less hard route?

Those toolkits have widget sets that you would have to redo in Red 
for View, for another several years of uncertain development

I know. But I also expect RED being kind of compatible to RED, syntax 
wise. And I think Robert would not mind, if someone tried to port 
R3 GUI to RED. As you can read on various places, ppl still want 
View, small toolkit, and some are even reluctant to join RED, if 
the clarification of GUI availability is not made ...

It seems to me that under Red, one marvelous tool which could be 
created would be similar this new one - which I just discovered ... 
at least with my not too long vision  - based on the Cheyenne HTTP 
server, it seems it could be realized using a similar approach, to 
begin with ... http://www.wakanda.org/overview- Also available 
on Github for those interested to look at the code (may be Topaz 
friends - sinc it is base entirely on Javascript).

Could not JS everywhere someday be replaced by Red everywhere - or 
some derived fork ?

Now it could be Red based instead ;-)

(from #Red) - Arnold, which version of Make Doc are you using? I've 
many iterations of MD that I've hacked away at over the years, perhaps 
I'll have something that will be easier to hack?  Most recent version 
I put together for the 'Notes For the Road' site, has some nice features 
- currently hacking at it again for a more ambitious QM project...