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The host level can provide a more direct mechanism for inter-task 
sync and comm.

to know, if we can break the parsing in any place, and continue it 
later

We need a way to make the "todo list" accessible and we need users 
to help us maintain it.

Maxim needs some changes for extensions... and has posted them somewhere, 
but I'm not sure where.

Chat ... it was about callbacks IIRC and some ideas ...

so why just not to chat upon some areas and fill in already good 
project-plan?

So, when and where?

Carl - R3 Chat is not nowhere, no? It was created to be a developer's 
tool too. But - we can make projects-plan.html a wiki page, so we 
can edit it and fill it with detail?

(I am quite sure that BrianH has some kind of microwave beam and 
reads my thoughts.)

Again about parse, there was that proposal to execute words bunded 
with functions and to parse their result instead of doing nothing 
currently.
It would allow to construct dynamic rules.
Any opinion ?

Carl - because you said you need more than particular thread posted. 
So I replied, that R3 Chat was supposed to be a streamlined and isolated 
Dev comm channel for us, and as such is not "nowhere", but now I 
can see I mixed two your replies, so forget it ...

Steeve, post that to the parse group, and I will answer it.

i already posted it, and you said it was interesting but the other 
people didn't react...

That was one of the original parse proposals, Steeve, from 5 years 
ago. If those functions could take arguments and have local vars, 
almost all of the parse operations could be replaced with such functions. 
There was even a suggested rule! function type.

Pekr, I am not sure how the "community" can edit the project plan... 
It is better to simply mention what edits are needed, and we can 
updated it quite rapidly (it's built by a REBOL script.)

it's a function ? parse execute it and use her result as a rule

so what should we do? Suggest some stuff we think should be in-there 
for beta? But where to suggest it? Most interested ppl are here, 
not just right now. So we can collect some stuff, and post it to 
you "somewhere" - maybe R3 chat Priorities group?

... based on their experience of Vista, and without any consideration 
of the merits of 7. Very similar.

AND renamed to STAY, ? renamed to THEN, or so it seems for A84 ....

we are also getting mutliple to/thru. So, now from interesting enhancements, 
INTO and USE are not implemented yet ...

Well, STAY can be dropped later, to be replaced by AND.

We don't need STAY, we need AND.

It seems to me, that Carl does not understand, what AND proposal 
requests? Maybe he does not even regards AND related bugs being actually 
bugs?

We need AND more, particularly the feature that was missing from 
a83 (bug#1238).

That was the most important feature of AND.

Pekr, the advantage is that if rule1 succeeds and rule2 fails, rule3 
is skipped instead of backtracked to.

Terry - your first post after XY months, and insulting?

BrianH: we can hear it once and once again - open-source mantra. 
Well, your question is absolutly correct - noone knows the licence, 
yet ppl are complaining. We now have much more important stuff to 
solve. I expect RT keeping to its initial promise = host code = open-source, 
interpreter = closed source. But even with closed source Core, we 
have daily ability to influence its design. Parse project (and not 
only that) is clear example. If the community would not define it, 
it would not happen. Now why do I need Core to be open-sourced too? 
Maybe because of resources. But then - I can imagine 10 incompatible 
versions of R3 flying around ....

Terry - good night and be happy with all the open JS, html, and other 
very nice technologies :-)

BrianH: do you think we will get USE and INTO implemented for the 
first round of parse redo?

BrianH: the worst thing is, that even if R3 would be open-sourced 
NOW, there would not be any new activity around. There was an ORCA 
- how is that there was very little community involvement? Open-source 
proponents would win their arguments, but they also very often expect, 
that millions of hours of new forces will magically appear and shift 
the projet to the new level.

... whereas the opposite is true. Carl asks for feedback. How many 
ppl gave Carl feedback towards VID? Me, you, Henrik? How many ppl 
do comment Parse? 5 - 8? So - let's concentrate upon finishing the 
plan with what we have, and save our complaints for later.

And I am quite satisfied with the parse feedback, especially when 
you include the original enhancements and the initial proposals during 
November through January.

Why you need it for DB access for e.g.? Is it because you simply 
want async behaviour, and that is only possible via stand-alone device? 
So we will e.g. implement SQLite.device?

We really can't have REMOVE 1 and 2 both - the rules don't match, 
there would be ambiguity.

What is the Device model though? We have not seen any examples yet. 
So you take extension API, create some SQLite.dll (extension), and 
integrate it via Devices API?

Then let's have REMOVE 1, to make Steeve happy :-) He is right that 
index aproach still can work in terms of storing a position into 
variable and doing REBOL level remove in parens ...

BrianH and I work together well, but the two of us alone are not 
enough!

.... It's about 10  years the rebol ommunity tells you can't do all 
alone and you need to open the source code... this doesn't means 
the final integration word is not yours... This doesn"t mean that 
you will have 100% ready to go additions. This doesn't  mean that 
rebol VM  will be stabilised to less than 1Mo ... More you have embeded 
feature hard written in the VM bigger it is that's why the "extension" 
approache is good.

Then the VM can be seen a minimal execution environement able to 
run any ind of things ... that the way most of the "regular" script 
languages works.

i like tht way to resume parse action car "Match then Action"  then 
the problem is when you match somthing then you when your action 
not to impact on the match thing but on the following  or preciding 
thing. The index system is the main problem in my opinion:  where 
i am ? what does i store  and until what point ?  i'm before or after 
my match ? and if my match is not  given in the right way how can 
i be sure my match tags are not taken inverted and that my action 
system will not freak out ?


Programming in parse gives you so many "asks" to care about that 
you are fast lost. But i'm agree the  result of parse rules in general 
once understoud (if it's any time the case ) is easy and beauty full.

and i think parse is already a big enhancement compared to regular 
expression ( i give a try to it past week writing a software in ruby 
... that's horrible ... I mean i'm complaining about parse but regular 
expression is so much a bore and stupid to write + they don't allow 
any action they are just made for match  only way to have regular 
expresion doing something is in ruby using them with an action mathod 
of the string class..... And that the kind of stupid things most 
of  coders in the world today found fantastic ??? HOOOO  really ???)


So when we come from mystring.match( "/\d\w***.*" ) kind of things 
of course going to the match action parse way is complicated... but 
complicated maybe not the way it's supposed to be.

Parse works better on "tags" words matching more than cabalistic 
formulas like regular exapressions. This doeasnt means it can't be 
doing that too..

what i have real difficulties to figure out in parse is the index 
system... I have a problem to see where i'm  and what my actions 
is doing.  do i "store index match then action" or do i  "match store 
then action" ? And if you add to that the sub rules i'm like completly 
lost. Cause in some cases sub rules can trigger their own particular 
special only for them actions ...

In the past Carl seemed to skip building the "big" alpha releases 
for OSX and Linux until the Windows has been tested. I would guess 
that we'll see a84 or a 85 for OSX.

The OSX version of Rebol3 is missing things that are in the Windows 
version (extensions) and has a number of bugs such as no internal 
event handling so that wait consumes 100% of the CPU, server ports 
don't work (probably related to no internal event handling) and call 
doesn't work properly.

i don't understand the "it will work as cgi ..." does it means outside 
an apache server and through a html page rebol won't work ? then 
rebol would be something like a custom php ?

and I imagine a lot of beginners getting stuck in this.

I disagree on unfixing this. It's hostile towards the beginner to 
allow hanging the parser and I ran into this quite a few times, before 
finding out what went wrong.

and I still occasionally accidentally activate it when building parsers 
in the console.

Parsing is not a beginner task. There are many ways you can shoot 
yourself in the foot with PARSE, and we just added more. Live with 
the fact that some concepts require some explanation :)

This is why we have the ?? operation and TRACE function.

if a rule constitutes the part in the block and the block is empty, 
I don't see how that is useful.

as steeve says... forever [] isn't usefull either.  at some point 
you have to understand a bit of what you are doing.


the only thing that really happens to me is hitting the end, and 
not realizing that something in my some or any is preventing the 
rule to go "past" the end.

Ladislav, how hard is it to detect an empty rule and cause an error?

Ladislav: I don't know? It seems like a good idea and it's a bad 
way to pause a script. Rather use WAIT. But it's unrelated to empty 
rules as they are a side effect of PARSE.

Henrik, forever [] and some [] are unrelated just for you; not for 
me.

and there is a more common error which cause endless loop in parse
some [... | ....| .... | ]   <- nothing after the last |

That is why we have ?? and TRACE.

An empty rule is a legitimate shortcut for none, and is not necessarily 
an error either as an empty rule or as none..

AND, NOT, STAY, IF and REMOVE don't advance either, and OPT might 
not advance.

It would be the same with a rule containing none, not if, and stay, 
opt, remove, insert, change, parens. Why special-case the easiest?

That indicator needs to be resolved at programming/testing/debgging 
time. And you can use SECURE 'eval at runtime if all that fails.

And in R3 the same, except you need to engage the keyboard handler 
before it reads. You can escape forever [prin ""].

BrianH R3 is open source but not open access.... hihihihihihi

My point is if you want dianamic particiapation on enhancements in 
rebol3 anyone should be able to access the  whole code as "reader" 
at least. I mean for example i want to bring a sql-protocol like 
enhancement but able to be used in the inner most layer of  rebol 
VM ...  if i can read the source code of the whole WM that allows 
me to get a better understanding on how the layers are made and how 
to do my intgration then I can come with my proposal and "offer it" 
to RT rt keeps the final word on new things integration based on 
community work . RT so remains the controler and the single diffusion 
source of retail R3 VM ...

shadwolf - nonsense and excuse.

pekr i was one of the first in seeing them :P

and they are made that way because at that time rebol VM  was closed 
and obdc:// layer wasn't a default "open" solution...

Pekr the difference is that doing a script passing commands through 
net sockets and dialect translation isn't the fastest way ... but 
it's the easier to implement and even so when you don't have access 
to the direct content of the "black box"

I took SQL things as an example because Carl was rubbing his head 
on a the wall trying to figure out what "SQL  like language" was 
the most suited to integer in the VM . But yes my be i understoud 
it the wrong way...  thing is SQL server are out of the box things 
and it would be better imho to keep them as external script doing 
the way we done them until now. I'm not sure we would benefit integrated 
them into the "black box" (R3 VM) if we then don't have the means 
to follow the product update...  If that's to produce a VM able to 
talk to a precise SQL server version under spécific circontancies 
I don't see that as a gain ...  AT least the scripted way is easy 
to maintain and run the same way under most circonstancies.

Shadwolf - I think that parsing SQL commands and results over sockets 
is not the most intensive and time consuming thing in DB area. The 
most of the work is done by the SQL engine itself ;-)

pekr yeah but when you computer is already filled with HTTP request 
adding more "SQL requests" slow downs your HTTP or at least that's 
the way i see it and that maybe too why all the database builders 
created another entry point called odbc

Shadwolf - I am not dismissing opensourcing REBOL. I just try to 
point out, that open-sourcing it now would not bring us any significant 
advantage. It would not bring us hundreds of coders suddenly, being 
able to add good and quality code, so that Carl could accept it. 
I am for finishing Beta plan = finishing Core to the level of satisfaction 
and THEN releasing the Host code = everything except the interpreter. 
Interpreter code can be released later ...

yeah with often ralpha release at least we have time to test and 
find most of the bugs and that makes the wrok more dynamic... In 
comparasion of the way the rebol implementation was done and how 
it's done now I from far prefere the actual way and it's getting 
our small community tigher to Carl ...

Shadwolf, Carl wasn't looking for a "SQL like language" to embed 
in REBOL, he was looking at projects like SQLite to see if he could 
extract their table engine and use it directly without using SQL 
at all. This was for RIF (REBOL Indexed Files).

who open source a software in alpha stage

 - Most open source projects do this. And most open source projects 
 never get out of the alpha phase, because open sourcing a project 
 doesn't get it done faster - most people don't contribute, period.

I agree Pekr, R3 progress has been excellent, the project plan is 
solid and focused for an effort of this size.  Things have really 
picked up in a good way.

not yet, and I wonder if Carl will make it. He's into parse right 
now ... we will see, we can always remind him of that ...

ok, I would have added my extension example there right away...


 its funny cause he made devbase so we would have a channel to speak 
 with him within R3... then I use it posting callback proposition. 
  a few days later, he asks me where I put it (it sticks out in the 
 extensions groups quite a bit).  Si I give him back the link to the 
 original post....


 and a bit more than week later... he says here that he doesn't know 
 where the source to my extension callbacks stuff is... <sigh>  

Carl really needs a brain maid  ;-)

Without devices you won't be able to specify which task is handling 
the events, and how the events will fit into R3's event model.

PARSE is ordered, and maps don't have persistent ordering. Iterators 
and queries are better for maps.

it does work for me in FF 3.5 and IE 7

Some technical issues in getting it to work; and the apparent lack 
of willing in Rt to fix these problems....There are under six pages 
of tutorial, so it is easy to get to.

authors of various TryREBOL systems seem to have problem with persistence. 
Wouldn't Cheyenne be of some help here? By simple cookie you could 
identify the client and have one console session for him started. 
Cookie would expire at browser's end, or with zero activity for 15 
minutes for e.g. Is there anything I am missing here?

there would be a need for a session manager and process manager. 
I think, something like R3 Uniserve.

fastcgi keeps you connected to one process, persistently, and assures 
session affinity = it directs the same client always to the same 
process ...

do we have any date for gui R3 and the beta R3 ?

Current project plan is here: http://www.rebol.com/r3/project-plans.html


Carl expressed his will to adapt the list and its priorities upon 
the needs of community ... I will ask him to wikify it, so that we 
might edit it ...

only for play and learn

I don't know how you can come with an estimate of 2-3 weeks especially 
as the current GUI only works on Windows and doesn't yet support 
Unicode..


Even if it only takes that little, I can't see Carl having 2 to 3 
weeks to dedicate to the GUI this side of the New Year.

I am also not sure, GUI will support Unicode from the very beginning, 
altough many expressed it being a priority. There is a difference 
between GUI and VID. Carl worked on VID. Once he is back to it, I 
believe Cyphre is going to be contacted to do some work on View part 
...

My guess is 2-3 weeks for VID itself and 1-2 months for the skin. 
Really lowlevel stuff depends on the availability of Cyphre.

After the parse enhancement, I really think the extensions improvements 
(other datatypes and devices/callbacks) should be done first... a 
lot of stuff can then start parallel to what carl works on.  not 
just by me... but many of us can work on improving R3 at the capacity 
level through extensions and have the need and will to do it.

And people could come with VID proposals too, to help Carl

I think the VID design is pretty decided upon, it just needs agile 
hands to implement it... and that IIRC depends upon a few enhancements 
to the engine and for some of the design to be finalized by Carl.

Brian, it's possibly forlorn, but I can forsee a pattern of [and 
map! here: change to-block here/1 :here into []] (sorry, rough approximation) 
in order to serialise in one form or other.  Given there could be 
no other possible use for [into map!] perhaps parse could imply that 
conversion?

Good guy, and smart too. New to REBOL but not new to programming.

Right, objects present a similar pain.  I know for the most part, 
you don't want to do this.  It's a very specific case - when 'parse 
into encounters a map, instead of returning false, it converts to 
a block and parses.  I don't see this as touching the way map! works 
at all, just parse - for those occasions where it'd be useful over 
an old-style workaround.

Well, the IF operation of PARSE was added exactly for that reason: 
to make alternating between PARSE and DO code easier :)

BrianH ...  it's like a "i don't kiss girls  cause i'm affraid" your 
comment about open sourcing ... sorry but when the language is open 
source and have apeal  it meet it's public ... And contributions 
rains...


So open the  source at least will have an educational purpose ... 
it's better to be able to refere directly to the content of the source 
code to extract replies to our asks than waiting endlessly answers 
from the main chief guru or ithe selected ones don't you think ?

You are insulting me by saying "waiting endlessly answers from the 
main chief guru or ithe selected ones" - I repeat: never did and 
never felt like, but was asked to by some like you. You are even 
now trying to state I should, as I read, that is why you are like 
those who did before.

Shadwolf, all of my contributions to R3 and R2 have been in the open 
source portions, which is already a significant fraction of REBOL. 
This source has been open for a year at least, effectively. In that 
time, having the source open has brought the code contributions of 
a couple people. This is what I mean when I say that opening the 
source isn't some magic trick that will get you help.


In that same time period, the introduction of CureCode, R3 chat and 
DocBase have led to huge amounts of contributed help, more testers 
finding more bugs than we ever would have found without them. Those 
contributions have been extremely valuable. However, none of them 
were related to opening the source.


Now, I am all in favor of opening the source, but I am in favor of 
it for social, business and convenience reasons. I have no illusions 
that it will get more than a few people to contribute though. And 
read-only licenses are the worst of all, because anybody who wants 
to actually do anything with what they might learn from reading the 
code is usually legally prohibited from reading the code, to prevent 
accidental copyright infringement.

[post removed by library team. (sunanda)]

Gab, yes, I checked after posting...anyway I guess that people following 
AltMe channels are here, not sure there's much others following only 
on web and not having a account here.