AltME groups: search

Kaj: yes that is exactly why I was looking at ReiserFS too. Why build 
storage systems on top of FileSystems if FileSystem could be the 
storage system (and probably more optiomal if it'

They run Linux of-course. Could you see Windows 95 with remote swap 
file? Maybe so, but I never tried that :-) They use them as production 
line terminals - various stages of production, recording info, storing 
into mySQL. The app was initially simple, now it is not simple anymore 
:-) I always said my friend is crazy. I suggested python, perl, etc. 
to him, to be more safe, but he did like REBOL, its size, just-on-file 
aspect, and now the system might be rolled to UK based facility :-)

why use other languages?  My personnal observation is that software 
running REBOL is much more stable than other scripted languages. 
 cause you have more time to debug and less bugs to begin with.

I use TinyME, but it currently doesn't have a download, and the previous 
stable release of Wolvix, but it currently doesn't have a stable 
release and the new versions are much bigger

I'm eying ArchBang and the TinyME development releases to try out, 
but I don't know yet if they're suitable

Anyway, a year ago I decided to stop distro hopping if at all possible, 
and try to develop Syllable Server so that I could work on it myself 
on all my machines; which I've now succeeded at apart from that installation 
CD

i tryed syllable in a VM box  that's cool ...so actually there is 
 2 derivated from BeOS syllable desktop and Aiku. I would say Syllable 
is a step further than aiku. One question this OS seems to be  pretty 
accurated for small environement. Do you plan to relase a netbook 
adapted syllable ? something like an ubuntu remix but adapted for 
syllable.

There are a few issues and limitations, different ones for Syllable 
Desktop and Syllable Server, but basically they work on EeePC

I have an EeePC 901 that has been overused to the point of no longer 
working, so it is due for a redo and possible repurposing. Might 
Syllable be appropriate for such a machine? What hardware is unsupported, 
and how much space is taken by the OS?

On a regular EeePC, there's an SSD disk and an extra card slot, which 
are swapped by the BIOS during booting

I may have to just do a system restore and then redo my customizations 
and app removals, still stuck with XP. Annoying and slow, but this 
provides the greatest support and flexibility on this platform. I 
need my 802.11n and (for now) Hamachi.

Maybe the second SSD is on that second slot. In any case, this leads 
to weird drive swapping in the boot manager. The Syllable development 
build has a special installation entry that does that and disables 
USB 2, but there are some other omissions on the development build

I have many computers that I network together. All of these are using 
dynamic addresses, and most of them change physical locations often. 
Hamachi makes all of that go away - they seem like they're on the 
same switch with fixed IPs.

Hamachi only supports Windows well. Before they were bought by LogMeIn 
they were working on Mac and Linux versions, but not since then, 
and the old alphas use a different network protocol than modern Hamachi. 
This is why I've been looking for a decent replacement, but it is 
tough since there are no open-source equivalent projects.

Not really, since this provides an overlay network that gets past 
NAT and dynamic IPs. OpenVPN provides point-to-point or client-server 
networks, but not a full LAN.

The best seems to be NeoRouter, but I would need a stable always-on 
server with a reliable internet connection, and I don't have either, 
particularly not the reliable internet. NeoRouter gives you more 
flexibility (in theory), but requires you to provide your own login 
server instead of just using one from the provider like Hamachi.

I checked at least a dozen different projects, and none have come 
close to the same model. For that matter, Remobo and NeoRouter seem 
to be the only other closed-source products that come close.

You could also rid your life of complexity and go back to one computer 
:-)

I actually switched to AltME at the time because Groove didn't come 
through with their Linux (and Mac) versions

And going to one computer would add complexity, since many people 
are doing stuff at different locations :(

If they were, I could continue to use Hamachi. Now there are an increasing 
number of OSX users, and the occasional Linux, with some Android 
users too (I can ignore the iPhone for now).

I tried my cURL binding on Syllable Desktop and it just worked

We introduced and handed out a sneak preview of our new Syllable 
Desktop live CD, introduced the REBOL 3 cURL binding and went through 
our planned demonstration of setting up a website provider on Syllable 
Server, running on Cheyenne, making a website on Desktop with my 
REBOL CMS, building it with REBOL 3 and uploading it to Server with 
the cURL binding, with a short demo of the graphical version of Syllable 
Server thrown in

I'll be sure to try it on my laptop and give you feedback...  :-)

I've produced a new Syllable Desktop live CD, shipping with REBOL 
3 and Boron:

I don't know, it said "flush_block ... failed" several time (20-30 
times may be) I thought that it doesn't work but then desktop appeared 
and it works fine.

my screen res. is 1024x600 but Syllable opens 800x600 screen and 
there is only 640x480 and 800x600 options, no 1024x600.

I tried Preferences/Screen applet, there was just 640x480 and 800x600. 
I will try live cd on my desktop pc this weekend also, it is an old 
amd athlon.

yeah - I don't know who Cipri is, and I also think that Syllable 
progress is kind of questionable to become mainstream OS soon :-), 
but otoh why to put it down that way?

He was associated several years ago with some people who put up a 
big fight in the project and eventually left and supposedly forked 
Syllable because they knew everything better, never to be heard from 
again. Apart from the trolls that are still roaming around, that 
is

I looked into it at the time. I don't remember the details, but some 
hacking would probably be needed in the boot process and such

so i think he might be happy to try it and would need just a little 
of your resources in form of a little guidance

Kaj: ok, just reading the rest of the article. i wont bother with 
this olpc guy then, probably, unless he is really enthusiastic and 
willing to figure it out on it's own mostly :)

btw, the vmware image didnt fully boot on virtualbox 3.1.4... i got 
a blank black screen after the character based one and then i had 
a mouse cursor too, but thats it

Onetom, Henrik had Syllable working on VirtualBox in January here 
above. Other people have reported failure with some VirtualBox and 
VMware versions. You have to follow the right procedure, and then 
it still depends on emulator versions

VB was always very slow and buggy for us, but some people say Syllable 
runs OK in it. In any case, emulators slow down systems tremendously. 
Some alternative systems such as Haiku are optimised for emulators, 
but we have always optimised for real hardware. Emulators claim to 
emulate real hardware, so we consider it their problem to run Syllable 
acceptably

Yes, unfortunately, Lulu has stopped making CDs, and simply removed 
all CD projects

I've installed Syllable Desktop 0.6.6. Didn't run my nvidia card 
so I switched to vesa mode. I didn't find my PS/2 Defender mouse, 
and navigation over GUI elements is degraded when only keyboard is 
used (underimplemented)? I can provide any details about my hardware. 
The primary problem at question is a mouse.

I will also need a pppoe protocol impl. Though I will soon change 
an ISP and will probably have different IP-related protocols.

I would prefer Syllable over Windows and *nix since Windows and X 
are painfully slow :)

I'm experienced software (and asm) developer, so you can use my skills 
at diagnosing problems at my local installation :)

Sorry, there's not much else to do than trying another mouse, unless 
you would want to debug and fix the problem in Syllable

You'd have to follow the instructions on our development site to 
set up your Syllable installation for compiling software, then download 
the Syllable source code and start hacking the PS/2 mouse driver

And Boron, ORCA and Red-produced executables

I produced Syllable Server to run R2 (and World)

Fetching all the development stuff and the desktop 0.6.6 source code... 
My MMV.

And I was under root

To mount ntfs, I used "mount /dev/disk/ata/hda/1 ~/media/m1/ -w" 
and the fs became readable and dirs were searchable

mc reports Permission denied (13). /var/log/kernel reports assertion 
failure in ntfs_clear_inode under ntfs_write_inode : kfree of memory 
that was not kmalloc-ed. And subsequent failures in a form of stack 
traces.

no stack traces this time, and no relevant messages found.

It may seem that I've found a sources glitch with my mouse. A kernel 
log reports "IMPS2 mouse found" which means that appserver/appserver/ps2mouse/ps2mouse.cpp 
detected an Intellimouse PS/2 mouse. Maybe developers had no Intellimouse 
to test stuff, therefore there's no code setting up the mouse for 
that clause. I.e. it gets detected, but there's no special init (which 
must be there), only the message is printed and the mouse protocol 
is not switched (it must be switched, I guess).

I'll fetch and install.sh a development build.

And to run the system with a modified ps2mouse.cpp ?

I need to insert it and recompile and run.

It could also be a problem in the interfacing between Syllable, CoreUtils 
and the NTFS driver. Maybe it should communicate somewhere that Unicode 
is wanted

The Builder README is indeed what you need for compiling, but you 
shouldn't build the complete system, because that's huge and very 
complicated

Some modules have dependencies, but I think you can build the PS/2 
driver on its own. After that you need to replace the one in the 
system with it, and then you may have to restart

I fetched devel. files for 0.6.6 and built ok there. 


I've tried to hack the obvious but did not succeed; mouse doesn't 
work. It is necessary to compare Linux drivers with Sy.

And Syllable is painfully slow in VESA mode on my video card. Videocards 
with closed specs must be avoided.

It's not so much that the video specs are closed, but that the drivers 
haven't been updated for years. Ideally, the Nvidia driver and others 
should be ported again from Xorg and Linux

One file specifies misc. connection parameters, and another file 
contains username/password pairs.

Ubuntu 11.04 and gNewSense 2.3 "deltah" still have drastically bad 
handling of PPPoE.

and rp-pppoe must be ported.

Syllable pppd complained about _pty_ having a 0 baud rate setting, 
which is invalid condition and pppd exits. Therefore I added a speed 
option.

But a virtual terminal pty0 is not what we want --- we need Ethernet 
card instead of pty. And to specify an Ethernet card, LFS instructions 
use "plugin rp-pppoe.so eth0"

I will reboot and try. AFAIU it's installed.

Maybe it isn't in the Syllable package because that needs the Linux 
kernel module and it isn't ported

And the next step would be to try to compile RP

I vaguely remember two PPPoE implementations, and it seems you can 
choose between user space RP and a Linux kernel module, where pppd 
seems to have an emulation for the RP library using the kernel module

PPP support (CONFIG_PPP), the asynchronous line discipline (CONFIG_PPP_ASYNC), 
the driver for your serial port device and/or the PPP over Ethernet 
(PPPoE) protocol driver (CONGIG_PPPOE) must be compiled into the 
kernel or loaded as kernel modules. Udev doesn't load the ppp_generic 
and pppoe modules automatically. If you compiled them as modules 
they can be loaded by the modules bootscript if they are mentioned 
in /etc/sysconfig/modules file.

We've always thought we had this PPPoE implementation, and there 
were supposed to be configuration instructions floating around, but 
I can find nothing but confusion about them. I'm starting to wonder 
if we ever had PPPoE. It seems more likely this is just a PPP virtual 
network module, without source

Someone was rewriting the network stack and implementing IPv6, but 
he never published what he had. It's very frustrating

Very true: "[A] problem with it is that none of these competing [applications 
and non-integrated subsystems] choices have even matched the quality 
of the integrated systems that we admire."

VMware and QEmu work much better

...relocating my Syllable qemu image from Lubuntu into gNewSense. 
1) Lubuntu's LXDE often ignores mouse clicks, and 2) i feel more 
comfortable on a wholly free sotfware, as my home PC is a hobby PC.

Every Internet provider I've met, including ADSL, Ethernet networks, 
and optical cable networks providers, use PPPoE. Except for the mobile 
Internet provider I had, who used CDMA 3G.

An ADSL provider gave a small D-Link box, I don't know its function. 
And Ethernet providers didn't give any routers, just gave an end 
of an Ethernet cable.

That situation is long gone here in the Netherlands, and surrounding 
countries I know of

You get a sort of family box, such as a D-Link, that handles the 
connection method and provides a standard ethernet hub for the whole 
house

In the Russia, there is normally one computer per family, and in 
some cases a few computers per family.

I don't have VMware, and I don't usually use pirated software (i.e. 
no way to run VMWare).

I consider the following features of Syllable as its strongest points: 
1) Simplicity, and 2) having a precise target: desktop OS. Targetlessness 
makes a bad thing to operating systems... (Though I didn't think 
too much on strongest points, and I don't know much.)

Kaj: could you draw a total Syllable high-level architecture overview 
diagram (i.e. levels and subsystems)? Is such a diagram present at 
Syllable docs?

I prefer to work with stable version first, to not encounter clashes 
with newborn bugs. If I get to anything working, I would like to 
merge it with the development version. So I will not currently install 
a development version. I have one computer with four hard drives 
and multiple partitions, one QEMU Syllable installation, and one 
native HDD Syllable installation.

I've tested Haiku. 1) It does not have pppoe out of the box, and 
afair on its forums there is an unfulfilled request for pppoe. 2) 
Haiku uses VESA mode on my machine, supports more modes than Syllable, 
and is MUCH MUCH faster re: windows dragging with mouse than Syllable. 
Haiku reports: VESA version = 3.0, capabilities 1. Haiku allows for 
1280x1024x32 mode while Syllable only allows 1280x800 mode and shows 
a black screen in 1280x1024 mode.

not yet. at my plans there's plan9 and inferno, too

Minix3. wikipedia: "The main uses of the operating system are envisaged 
to be embedded systems and education, such as universities or the 
OLPC XO-1 laptop.[3]" --- not very intreresting goals for me.

microkernel architecture and selfhealing. perhaps the real hurd? 
;-)

BTW What areas are strong in Syllable over Haiku and in Haike over 
Syllable?

They're quite alike and their development state is also quite alike. 
I can't really list all the details, as I only test Haiku once every 
few years or so, when they make a new alpha release

What I consider the biggest differentiator is that I have been pushing 
Syllable to use REBOL like languages for many years. Red programs 
can run on it, Boron is included, soon REBOL 3 (now on the live CD) 
and the packager is written in ORCA

And of course, I created Syllable Server, an extra Linux companion 
that Haiku doesn't have

And Kaj, now honestly you can tell me (decide for yourself, as this 
group is web public), why some ppl (or it's actually just one person) 
blames you from demotivating others? I always wonder, how such a 
thing as REBOL can make core developers to leave? What do you think 
about the topic? (not neccessary belonging into vent)

I expect Vanders and eventually others leaving projects, just because 
they had different priorities in life?

That's a very long story. I can't speak for the motivation of the 
Haiku developers, and I can't predict the future of Syllable, so 
I won't try

As to how trolls are born, as you suspect, people left the project 
for different priorities, and for many different reasons

People leave volunteer projects all the time, and it's very easy 
for a troll to make it seem like it has something to do with the 
people remaining. Suffice it to say that this is motivated by their 
own feelings of inferiority, and far beside the truth

REBOL 3 is now in there, as on the live CD, including my cURL binding. 
I upgraded Boron to the latest version. ORCA is also still in there, 
for the Syllable package manager. I also added Fossil and many other 
components

ie. are the differences between R2 and R3 that great ?

I would want an assoc to be able to have any string type as a key 
and words as well, at least.