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I buy computer related books only very rarely - they are mostly a 
bloat and I often have feeling that you don't get what you expected. 
I am ok with on-line resources most of the time ...

That's sort of neat, I guess, although it's java and therefore is 
crap by default. :-)  I like how you can embed pieces of HTML in 
there.

but the advantage of javaFX is that the implementation is complete. 
Tabs can exist in the forms you like and you don't have to code that 
from the bottom up, like you do in VID. this is part of the higher-level-than-VID 
I have been talking about.

I just don't understand, what you mean, that it is higher-level-than-VID 
.... if VID, or RebGUI has such style, how is FX more higher level? 
I can't see there any other level of abstraction, or am I missing 
something? I don't want to argue :-) I just want to better understand, 
what might FX provide us with, and what is lacking in View + VID/RebGUI 
.... (I mean other things than missing styles, or styles not being 
complete?)

pekr, the thing is, from what I can see, that for example when using 
tabs, you don't have to think about problems with many tabs, stacked 
tabs or tabs not placed on the top. You just drop it in and JavaFX 
will handle them properly, no matter what you do to them.

I see the code:

model.tabLayout = SCROLL;


and there you have a scrollable tab bar. That should be all you need 
to do.

it's the same with LIST-VIEW. people use it, because it's full of 
features and you can code pretty powerful stuff in a few lines of 
code. although I don't consider LIST-VIEW to be a higher level thing, 
but a vital and necessary part of VID.

yes, that is OK, as now I understand what you mean. I first thought, 
that you mean there is one level of abstraction upon what we can 
ever achieve with View plus VID, and it sounded strange to me, as 
I think, that if new VID is cute, we can build pretty much feature 
complete UIs ... well, the toughest part is, how to easily integrate 
some html container? We would have to link to some html runtime, 
if there is something like that ... and that would be probably a 
huge effort ...

 At OSBC last week I gave a Radar talk on current technology trends. 
 The trend of moving traditional desktop applications to massively 
 networked, Web 2.0 online applications like Google Docs is well-known. 
 The problem is, a web browser is a terribly limited platform for 
 application development, and JavaScript is a less-than-fully-featured 
 language....
http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/05/beyond_the_brow.html

I'm watching an interview with Steve Jobs and Bill Gates that was 
posted on http://d5.allthingsd.com/yesterday. Jobs makes an interesting 
note at how much better network applications perform than web2.0 
pages, in context with Google Maps on the iPhone. I had thought that 
it was in fact a web2.0 thing in the iPhone.

and what is the difference? Isn't fronted of web 2.0 (ajax stuff) 
about html, css, js, and that you can have whatever architecture 
on server?

Well, you might be locked into precisely ajax, XML and managing session 
data in a non-persistent way, which is not optimal if you're building 
an application. We already know that, we're REBOLers. :-) He talks 
also about maintaining data persistence across sessions.

Previously posted (and perhaps lost in the flurry) in the I'm New 
group: Google announces its method of making web apps run offline, 
hence a lurch toward the x-internet:
http://gearsblog.blogspot.com/

<<The Gears team believes in the open web and the simple technologies 
it is built on, and we didn't want to change that. So Gears is an 
incremental improvement to the web as it is today. It adds just enough 
to AJAX to make current web applications work offline.>>

I'd say the terms [simple technology / AJAX / incremental improvement] 
are combinable to make several new oxymorons.

I think simple means what a community knows. AJAX etc, once learned, 
is "simple". Change to much and you loose a lot of people. Maybe 
"simple" should be replaced with - thought "beruhigend" - humm, http://www.dict.cc/?s=beruhigend, 
i guess i pick "reassuring", but "sedative" fits well from another 
angle^^

Making the *browser* the application platform is a nice idea.
But a browser is under-resourced, not designed for that role.

And (like desktop operating systems) there are multiple versions: 
IE, FF, Opera, Safari etc.
That is all problematical.

Millions are being thrown at the problem. But not much evidence that 
it is feasible.

And its free. Else look no further than ios (add fantasies about 
improvements if the browser/os markets had spend their money there 
;)

rebol really is a browser in the same sense of why people use web 
browsers.  in fact rebol is a rebol language browser, and IE is an 
html browser.  both intepret a set of specifications.  Rebol has 
all the same limitations of a browser, it implements only a subset 
of what can be done by an OS by default.    but the only real advantage 
REBOL has over "the web" (not to mix up with "internet") is that 
all parts of the development are in the same language, from  layout, 
stylesheet, interactivity, DB, all of this is coded using one single 
language.

but the fact that its an Abstraction layer which deals with all parts 
of interfacing an abstract thing like a computer to a human is why 
its so compelling... you can forget about sooooo much things and 
just concentrate on DOing stuff.

Not rebol, ios. Offline, quick distribution, a desktop for files 
and programms.

rebol is the javascript of that thing. ios is the browser. browsers 
have http, cache and such.

it just loads html and runs it...  providing a gui space, an execution 
space ... all is defined within the html source.  just like a rebol 
app.

pasting an url. navigation and open things. thats desktop

something to find files and programms, which lookes the same for 
everyone.

well, I am thinking about it and even rebol/view has the offline 
capabilities which browser apps don't really have yet.

So when someone suggests a better solution than incremental browser-improvements, 
i know one. I know both. The best incremental stuff, which gets attention, 
and the way it should work. Links to "rebuilds it radically better" 
are usually nothing new.

except IOS has bismal applications... sorry to say it so bluntly 
and it being not free, it never got the spin it would have had otherwise.

my thoughts also, Rebol has been doing it for 5 or 6 years already, 
and IOS is an example of how it might have been but didn't go far 
enough.

Yahoo! Pipes. (Feed aggregator and manipulator).....
http://pipes.yahoo.com/pipes/

Photosynth  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-DqZ8jAmv0and http://labs.live.com/photosynth/

I have played with a few ASUS computers, they feel like toys.  Know 
anyone that has a good one?


800x600, sorry, NO!


All I want is my current computer, but with LESS stuff:

Fujitsu P7020

24 cm wide
1280x768
1.2 G

It kicks ass, ven gets about 8 hours batt from the two bays.
very small.



What I want is this same computer but even thinner, and with no harddrive 
(just 40Gigs of SD cards).

Other than a few extra buttons I would like to add (like physical 
volume control, and dedicated page buttons) I'm really happy with 
this computer.  It travels around the world with me.

Opera Mini 4.0-beta was released today and this seems to be one of 
the best surprises of the year. It has Javascript, CSS support and 
zoom-in support similar to the iPhone's, but with all the processing 
happening to another server instead of your cellphone. Read more 
for screenshots and info! - http://www.osnews.com/story.php/18106/All-Hail-Mobile-Browsing-Opera-Mini-4.0-beta-Released/

nevertheless - last 2 years are good sign for those, who would like 
to have webserver plus browser kind of apps. So those ppl can concentrate 
upon Cheyenne plus rebol back end for eg., and front-end being based 
upon browser plus JS = you can find that client everywhere

If the REBOL plugin is used to show the REBOL desktop, and I start 
a REBOL script there (one of the demos for example). Will the script 
be kept inside the browser, or will it be like if I started the script 
from REBOL in a normal way?

Apple -> Google -> Youtube. It seems to me that Apple want to access 
these services, because it's Google. They'll perhaps even let the 
phone record movies and upload them directly to youtube.

Maybe some devs from here could look how P3 plans to support "Unicode, 
Codecs and I/O", and compare it with what is planned for R3.

For writing a RIA research article, I've spent 10 hours studing Curl, 
that didn't make me an expert, but so far:

1. I like the content-centric programming, it's kind of like MakeDoc 
+ RSP + RTF.

2. The macro facility seems powerful, which makes homemade DSL possible, 
I guess.
3. APIs seem complete.
4. The 2D and 3D rendering engine uses hardware-acceleration.
5. It's a Functional Language.
6. Unicode, Yes, even Curl supports Unicode.

Like I said, I am not an expert, so any of the items listed above 
could be wrong. Here is a DDJ article http://www.ddj.com/dept/architect/184413224

It is a longtime since I tried it.. But I recall it had fantastic 
support for units (weights, measures, distance) and intelligent conversion 
between them . But I can't find a link to any docs that show this 
anymore

The Curl doc is not in HTML/PDF formats. It's a Curl Applet itself. 
After downloading and Installing the Curl IDE, you'll have the Curl 
document, which is an applet, like I said. You can find some interesting 
2D / 3D Curl applets in the curl.com web site. I am impressed by 
its 2D / 3D ability.

An OpenSource phone. Funny! And why not? It must come. This must 
be something for Reichart and others who ask for opensource. :-)

we should watch Rentrak in Portland, OR and deviantArt.com  as they 
have people open to languages - and it is my impression there is 
much more Ruby and Python happening in Los Angeles ... of course 
 Io lang will be fine because they have a good core community who 
chat daily (IRC) and becasue Steve ignores my suggestions ;-)

The problem with lots of cellphone based on "linux" is that linux 
is not accesable at all... with the openmoko project Linux is also 
the OS but is fully usable for programming... They use a OEM phone 
hardware frmo [FIC]..openmoko is is the OS on top of Linux and is 
fairly based on GTK... (which is a stupid choise...) But because 
everything need to be OPEN in the openmoko project they selected 
GTK. Also Hardware-specs are OPEN. The Phone is already working !!! 
test version where tested in March this year... development is strong 
going...

Terry, builtwith is not very accurate -- perhaps because it has no 
way on ascertaining the serverside environment.
For example, it assesses REBOL.org as using PHP and javascript.

REBOL.org uses no PHP at all -- I suspect builtwith is simply reporting 
one of the server into headers which names the version of PHP that 
the ISP provides.

Similarly, REBOL.org has no javascript -- just an empty <script>...</script> 
tag to prevent FOUC in older browsers.

and I don't understand it - they went one step back - they call it 
a "desktop integration" - basically they let their plug-in to run 
outside the browser, like we have with View installed for ages. They 
ask you, if you want to place "airlet" app icon on the desktop :-) 
I hope we beat them :-)

Petr;  We really have to get you running GNU/Linux.  :)


This isn't really worthy of posting in Tech News, but I get a sneaky 
suspicion that with the lack luster Vista release, MS is going to 
get angry and start bullying a lot more than before.  We of the alternative 
universe will need to fortify the battlements or prepare to be assimilated. 
 2007/2008 could see the biggest FUD fight yet.  Or maybe not.  I 
do have a skewed view of the situation now-a-days, very one-sided. 
 My side...the right side...the light side.  :)

Terry - after allowing pup-up in FF, you have to reload certain page. 
IMO Mozilla should fix that and load page automatically ...

That's very interesting, all the language designers working on the 
next version : Python 3, Perl 6, and of course Rebol 3, hoping to 
eliminate the mistakes of early design, and ready to break compatibility 
with the previous version for the sake of a brighter future.

well hurrmph ... they will just have to go out and buy some more.

And Open Office is supposed to read Office Open, I doubt I'll ever 
get used to Office Open seeing as I use Open Office.

http://www.bbcbasic.co.uk/bbcwin/bbcwin.html
BBC Basic for Windows
 is tiny and powerful.

And while you're at it, check out the 1937 Fords.. I hear they're 
the 'bees knees'.

i don't understand - if he's just using radio waves to break the 
bonds between H and O in the water, then the energy he gets is exactly 
the same he puts in. it's not an energy source - he's just converting 
electricity into radio waves then into fire.

People seem to believe that there is talk about a perpetual motion 
machine, which of course isn't true. Same with the water fuel cell, 
which has a strange and sad story, but seems to be moving forward 
now.

remember when we talked about how to avoid spambots on Carl's blog 
and on rebol sites in general? For once Microsoft seem to have come 
up with something good: http://research.microsoft.com/asirra/

because every visit to your page will be logged on some microsoft 
project site, whatever it is. And I don't want to click on dogs and 
cats as I don't want to rewrite crypted texts. I'm human, not a robot 
so why to do that? I still prefere other methods how to avaid spam. 
Which is for example for inserted by javascript and or IP blocking 
on the server side if someone relly sucks (and I never had to do 
that)

Remember the mac guy pc guy commercial? there is a java guy and ruby 
guy video. it's so funny http://www.grabtherail.com/ImRuby.html

We probably should make a commercials like this.
Hello I REBOL
 "and I am Ruby" ... 
Making funny video is one of the good ways to get noticed.

Interestingly they plan to use geolocation services to show animals 
that are close to you in case you get tempted and want to adopt one 
of the animals.

Hello, I'm Rebol
   .... "and I'm .. er  sorry, who did you say you are?"

Robert, not sure if you want a Virtual Debian or a Host Debian, but 
check this small page.  Note: I've not  tried any virtualization 
myself.  Live dangerously and practice unprotected computing.  :)

http://linux.simple.be/vmware/More deets at http://www.howtoforge.com/debian_etch_vmware_server_howto
and finally as a appliance http://www.visoracle.com/download/debian/

Yep,  I hope this ruling puts the kibosh on the possiblity of hardware 
manufacturers being forced to sign non-disclosure agreements if they 
want drivers to function on Windows with DRM.  GNU/Linux would quickly 
start to lose out if that happens en masse.  Today is a good news 
day in my biased and perhaps  naive opinion.

I wondered...so that's what they get for donating 35 coders... a 
little bit of press and some branding.  :)

Henrik, you're right. And not just that, the performance is not good, 
because of Java. The download size is 150MB, and the installation 
size is 300+ MB. Why does IBM make everything dull and huge? We should 
make an Rebol Office, I mean it. After REBOL/View system has been 
improved in R3, this is not impossible.

This seems interesting...  Lina Software released the source code 
for LINA under the GPL v2. LINA enables Linux binaries to run with 
native look and feel on Windows, Mac, and Linux, without recompiling. 
 http://openlina.org/news.html

Interesting comparison of Open Office Writer and Microsoft Word 2007 
- http://www.linux.com/feature/118986


I thought Writer couldn't be compared to Word, but now I try to download 
Open Office to judge myself ....

http://unicap-imaging.org/unicap_eeepc.htm<--- this looks like a 
nice and interesting machine.

And it only costs user.r members $75 / month.

So the interface is all html and java script (traditional tools, 
AJAX too) and rebol is used on the server.

Terry;  I'm not sure of future plans, but no.  user.r was gifted 
the space and invites to members will remain at zero cost (until 
I'm told otherwise - again I'm not in on their business planning. 
The offer from Qtask was a gift).  So it's more like membership with 
user.r on Qtask is like getting a $75 a month bonus.   As a matter 
of fact, I want to move the current user.r Chat PITL project to Qtask 
sometime this weekend.  You can't beat Qtask for project management. 
  And being the friendly fence sitter...you can't really beat kommonwealth 
for the 'fun social side' that user.r should also portrait.  Both 
sites are suffering neglect right now, but that will change.

I still made it to keep my hands away from Java and I will hope I 
can continue to do so...

Well, I have switched away and back to US English with no change 
...

 Take a peek under your Settings in Gmail, and click into your 'Forwarding 
 and POP IMAP' tab to see if you are one of the lucky ones who got 
 IMAP first.

it is there now and it works

Mozilla Prism - an attempt to bring best of both world together - 
web apps, and rich apps - http://labs.mozilla.com/2007/10/prism/

So what does everyone think about the Everex/Wal-Mart gOS $200 Green 
PC?   GNU/Linux getting into the homes of people that can afford 
a $200 PC (sans tube).  Tech support - here we come  :)  And it's 
weird; that's like 50 bucks Canadian now.  A true reversal of fortunes 
is upon us...can you feel it?


http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,139196-c,fullfeaturednotebooks/article.html


I like the part about "...Vista has done a lot of damage to the low-end 
PC market..."   Yeah!  I want to be the tech support guy for the 
low-end market.  Yeah!  Nothing beats working for cigarettes and 
beer.

I shouldn't joke too loud.  The working poor have always been the 
people I feel the most comfortable hanging out with.  I think it's 
why I spew so much here on Altme.  Day to day it's the only place 
I can talk nerd and not risk a wedgie.  :)

nearly. Now they just need to make Python a 600K download and we're 
set.

hmm, I downloaded Python 2.5.1, and Installed Pyglet too. Well, I 
was surprised, how small their code can be. Python is imo even much 
more readable than REBOL. REBOL is simply - different.

Python's a nice language, but its kitchen sink approach to libraries 
is both a blessing and a burden :-)

I hope R3 in combination with VID3 will show ppl, that FLASH is wrong 
aproach to app development and that they should adopt REBOL instead 
:-)

Google releases Android - platform for phones and mobile devices, 
fully open-sourced. Linux kernel plus full java under that plus API. 
You can code your devices and use its functions - http://code.google.com/android/

I remember when Pentiums were the new Black, it was said the Colossus 
emulator (in C under windows, I guess) was far slower than the real 
thing (specialist hardware designed for the task on a war economy 
budget).

Looks like better languages, more modern hardware and (crucially) 
more recent algorithms means the Colossus can be finally retired:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11/16/german_code_breaker_defeats_colossus/

and who is going to?

isn't it funny? Before thay said, that we have to use <div align=center> 
instead of tag <center> and now we will be allowed to use tags like 
<article> <footer> ... :-)

<center>, <b>, <i> is for perception - and <article>, <footer> is 
for meaning. It makes sense for me.

It seems a short-sighted attempt at paving the cowpaths.  I appreciate 
the want to hardwire some of this stuff, but who decides and where 
does it stop?  I'd far rather xhtml was cleaned up, that there is 
one markup language that allows for a lot with a basic set of building 
blocks.

And == because = is taken for assignment

My point is, it's not exactly convenient -- and it appears key to 
Ruby's 'dialects'.  I know that Rebol is designed primarily for US 
English keyboards, and other layouts the [ ] symbols are harder to 
reach.  But => is so clumsy, seems like a design flaw.

Re: => - I wouldn't consider this sugar -- it's a awkward key combination 
for such a core piece of syntax.  I only ask as I was trying out 
IRB and it seemed weird.

IE8 passes ACID2 tests. That's cool :-) http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2007/12/19/internet-explorer-8-and-acid2-a-milestone.aspx

I'm not in defense on Apple here, but they do have really strict 
contractual obligations on what you can say to anyone when working 
for them. Apple employees are not allowed to talk to the press, family 
members, friends and even other Apple employees. If they do, they 
are fired immediately. The way Thinksecret obtained information was 
through breach of contract by Apple employees, similarly to how industrial 
espionage can be conducted. Because of this, they can prosecute.

The secrecy around products is very strong, because Steve Jobs just 
doesn't want products disclosed before time. That's how they do things, 
it's their business strategy and that's what Apple users must accept.

It's OK for Apple to behave like they want, because, you know, it's 
Apple. If Steve Jobs starts to eat babies they probably have very 
high nutritious value, are really healthy and very tasty. Man, it's 
Steve Jobs! Who are you to argue with him?

so eye-fi card has some kind of radio. In order to proceed, you have 
to put it in card reader, put it into usb on your pc, configure upload 
site, then you return it back to your DC, start shooting, and eye-fi 
card transfers photos to the station connected to usb port? I would 
save the hassle and just use card reader. Or buy decend DC supporting 
wi-fi :-)

Anyone checked out Links?  University of Edinburgh  http://groups.inf.ed.ac.uk/links/
   I'm not a real fan of AJAX but Links is being built to produce 
web frontend (Javascript), middle bit (SQL)  and backend (Java server) 
code from a single source.  I don't really care, but it may fit with 
the current Silverlight thread in REBOL Marketing.

And Oracle acquires BEA


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=alI8qN7k9lQU&refer=home

I could probably read a lot to get this info, but maybe someone here 
knows:

How do a company like MySQL make money? The database is open source 
and completely free, right? So do they earn by doing support? Selling 
books or what?

Why pay for mysql when postgresql is better and free?

So, the OS stuff is the teaser for the rest. And if you are the main 
person behind the OS project, you are the one being trusted for the 
above things.

Geomol, when you have a lot of users, it's easy to make money (Sun 
might come and buy you for example :). OS source helps a lot at getting 
a lot of users (the reasons are not entirely rational). still, i 
don't know how much a REBOL db would be popular.

VIA Isaiah architecture - shows the world how double the performance, 
stay with the same power consumption and stay pin compatible - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAonOmb8l3o

CURL has got some good press links at www.curl.com         I am hoping 
to see a CURL presentation as a possible front-end to QTASK  (ducking 
quickly) because of its off-line abilities ( OCC or occasionally-connected 
computing )  I hope the VID3 folks take a look at CURL which I find 
so natural cmpared to TCL and TK ... around Rebolrs maybe CURL should 
be renamed DUCK ...  at least REBOL has a Dummies book out there 
...