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The first link I posted yesterday, they offer what Chris(?) proposed 
to run View demos - not waiting for the plug-in - just let ppl install 
View and provide them with link, launching View, as much as Java 
WebStart does in combination with browser.

Java was made incompatible by MS. Flash had the luck to be a toy 
and a java-competitor, so MS loved it.

for interactive web experience, Flash stepped in, as there was also 
battle between java-script and jscript, incompatibilities, CSS was 
just starting, and no rebol plug-in around :-)

nowadays PCs are much faster, and JAVA is better too, and what is 
more - browsers are becoming kind of OS - container for various technologies. 
IMO JAVA can regain its position back, well, in some areas ....

And the goodjvmswhere just starting. Supercede, MS own, borlands. 
Then MS changed their vm and ide a bit..

Not bad. Its what  java  did, and would do as well now.

ah, now it makes sense. But imo there is nothing wrong with that 
kind of deployment. You know - ppl will probably not try to download 
View. But they could look and start to use it in a browser. And why? 
Because the deployment is easier and they believe the hype "you don't 
need anything else than a browser" :-)

Yes. But it was not "Flash stepped in", but  "java  was  kicked out" 
and  flash filled the gap.  Better Gui for designers for nimations 
too. But now its flash instaled everywhere, and people cringe to 
use it for serious  apps.

And  my sense  for fairness steps in andicry: "Wait! Wrong history!!" 
;)

Few weeks ago I looked into some View demos, and I still think, that 
if we do it right, and even prepare those demos for plug-in, it still 
can influence some ppl ....

Yep. And a popular ide  which silently  used them. Good work, both 
vm and  ide. But  it worked not on the others. And  some things where 
 chngedfrom thestandard, so stuff fro other ideasdid not work well. 
of course every bug was javas  fault, not that  of MS.

the  problem with  IOS is, it was the  right  library, and without 
it  rebol cant play  out its  real strength.

And it cant be cloned becausethat would  hurt RT. Well, could be 
cloned, we are justto nice^^

And for now  browsers have better layouting for text

/view could still do animations, menues and such.

And: AFAIK DOM means  other plugins  to. IConrtol the viedo :)

I have no big clue. AFAIK javascript can call everything, and rebol 
can call javascript. And  javascript can be generated.

Drawback is, AFAIK javascript can not call rebol. which would be 
nice  for buttons and such.

Yes, butthe jitwould be better, and ifiaim for speed..

And with googles compileri may  beable tohave a pure javascriptversion 
from the same source.

A raw hotspot withoutall the libs, and  rebolon top :)

oh yes, and its the spacebar.. That  or back to a keyboard with cable.

Which is written very oopsy. rewrite that for size and its  1 mb 
more.

I tried deploying a commercial tool in the brower and its very effective. 
 hehe it allows people to circumvent their sysadmins  :-)

I only wish there where a safe way to implement local file sandbox 
within plugin.  AFAIK, the write and save commands do nothing...

run a script  and show what-dir

Anyone tried this http://www.siteadvisor.com/.. plugin for firefox 
and ie that tells you about a site's safety rating in terms of spyware, 
popups etc

those Xmas decorations that are flat, and you unfold them to form 
a cylindrical decoration

Apple's iPhone has got a competition. It it in no way revolutionary. 
Eugenia from OSNews has some nice blog about it. First there was 
LG, now there is Samsung - those companies surely had such products 
in development for quite some time. Here's first look at Samsungs 
machine. And it got keyboard!


http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/en/news-13261-When+the+Korean+GOD+awake%2C+he+gives+us...+the+Samsung+Ultra+Smart+F700.html

Taken from OSNews - so much for a "great" Apple:


Parallels recently made a definitive statement saying that the company 
won't be making it easy for users to run OS X in a virtual environment 
anytime soon. The reasoning behind this was because they don't want 
to put their users at risk of breaking the OS X EULA - unlike Windows 
Vista, there is no version of OS X that can be run under a virtual 
machine - and more importantly, they don't want to strain their (currently 
good) relationship with Apple. As a followup to that statement from 
Parallels, I was able to also get in touch with Srinivas Krishnamurti, 
VMWare's Director of Product Management and Market Development in 
order to get VMWare's official position on the matter. 

Apple does not currently allow running Mac OS X in a virtual machine," 
he said. "Apple is an important partner and VMware respects Apple's 
intellectual property."

Still, they can throw lawyers at you, and even if you are in the 
right, legal fees will likely bankrupt you. Legalized extortion.

This is from the time where the Apple clones were killed, as Apple 
lost a lot of money to them, since they couldn't compete with them. 
Removing the clones and prohibiting use of MacOS on other than Apple 
hardware "solved" that problem.

So, what happens if you want to run Vista as your main OS on an Intel 
based Mac, and to run OSX virtually?

They make servers, music players, wifi hubs, displays, desktop computers 
in 3 different form factors, set top boxes, laptops, remotes, speaker 
systems, and soon they will be making phones as well.

Apple is very much a hardware company.

Yes, Jobs asked the music industry to remove DRM, and yet won't himself 
even when requested to do so by the artists.

Does anyone find it annoying that if you click and press by mistake, 
this icon menu appears in front of you?

often without the intention on my part, these icons fly in from outer 
screen and cover my main windown

hehe... v2 seems to have less "issues" which are not related to crashes... 
refresh bugs and things like that  :-)

it's a kind of a desktop... it claims to want to change the way one 
works with applications and documents. I haven't figured out how 
this works yet. The reason I'm interested in it is that it's GNUstep 
based.

Oldes, I have a commercial app online and its one of the most advanced 
scripts I've ever written.  it does web-service access in the bg 
doing sync of ui with a remote app (much like altme) , in the same 
time it crawls the net, does searching and allows you to download 
actual content when you ask for it... all simultaneously and using 
glayout too...

as many have said before... R2 and current plugin are great tools. 
 why are you keeping from using them?

... and we were SO close. Josh had it solved, then he announced Carl 
redirected him to something else, then he was about to post some 
security related doc - that never happened.

I agree that the no 1 problem of RT is not the technology... it the 
management of priorites and schedules and stuff like that.

at least we know the reasons are not the same and that RT itself 
is good willed.

Microsoft has given a go-to-market name for its cross-platform, cross-browser 
plug-in for delivering the next generation of user experiences and 
rich Internet applications for the Web. The technology formerly known 
as WPF/E is now known as Silverlight - http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2114418,00.asp

AFAICT its like the sdk, you can choose, enhance, but now we will 
also have access to lower levels.  the desktop source has been available 
for years and very little real community support exists.  we mostly 
do not care to much for the desktop.

since I don't need it I've never fixed it, but it would be pretty 
easy to just make sure the user is the actual user logon so that 
any configs are really the user's (and can be right-protected by 
admins)

which is why I have been thinking much more like a manager and an 
end-user lately.

I'm using the plugin within high-end software web architecture and 
its pretty amazing... doing 3 simultaneous streams of async, on demand 
with interruptions of xfers and background i/o all completely invisible 
to the GUI, (no gui jams)

sounds vague and generic to me.

It will be difficult to beat Flash novadays:


Adobe Systems plans to open-source Flex, its development framework 
for building Flash and Apollo-based applications. The company on 
Wednesday is expected to announce the move, which will start when 
it releases a beta of the next version of Flex, code-named Moxie, 
in June.

I hope linking to libraries is somehow improved and limitations like 
nember of callbacks allowed is removed ...

I am hoping too .... but according to blogs, you can "feel", that 
R3 kernel is not ready for release yet, well, just IMO :-) Carl mentioned, 
that just "few days ago" he was able to download first website, or 
something like that.


As for me, I expect (and prefer) early alpha R3 release, where basic 
infrastructure is in-place - tasking, device, event, timers, plug-ins 
(extensibility), and things like RIF, unicode, BCD etc. coming later 
...

as I said before, I think that the remark about first downloaded 
webpage does mean that TCP & HTTP protocols are ready and does not 
say anything about state of R3 kernel. And IIRC, TCP and HTTP are 
outside the R3 kernel.

as are timers :-) but those are essential. Simply put - Carl tries 
to keep R3's sources closed, and as much cross-platform as possible 
- hopefully for RT porting Rebol to new platform will mean "just" 
recompiling Rebol "kernel" source code. However - that source code 
will not be able to run without surrounding devices.

Anyone watch G4TechTV?


As a GNU/Linux fan, I didn't like the sounds of this particular discussion.

http://www.labwithleo.com/shownotes/episode2/notes

Which leads to

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html

and at least one "response"


http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windowsvista/archive/2007/01/20/windows-vista-content-protection-twenty-questions-and-answers.aspx

What the FUD is going on?

yes Vista DRM is extremely Violent... the fact that it cannot differ 
from H/W and software bugs is a big can of worms... imagine you have 
a faulty memory stick and suddenly, your monitor goes fuzzy, you 
have no clue what is going on...


now image that during a computer assisted surgery.... hum... yess... 
in this regard... Linux is starting to look more like a contender 
in strategic markets.

mygod a destop is a flat raster with other little rasters dangling 
over... 3d just applies these rasters to poly and distorts them... 
so its not like if it where rocket science.

and the 3d system browser with devices, files and applications all 
mixed into one slick rolling cube on cubes gui.

As far as I know (someone here told me) Open Office loads the whole 
application at start-up, while MS-stuff is more modular.

That leads to a larger footprint for OO as it loads loads of features 
unlikely to be used in any one session.
Modularity is apparently on the way, and will some difference.

it's easy to tell on OSX: it eats about 10-15 times more memory than 
MS Office. If you start it, it takes a lot of time to load, and after 
that, the memory usage is easily 150-200 MB with no documents open.

and incredibly slow... it feels like a huge Java application... does 
anyone know if it really is java?

OOo Core build is C++ (CePlusPlus) and UNO IDL.  Complete source 
package is a mere 260 Meg.

Very easy grok.  I'm not going to badmouth anymore.  I use it.  It 
keeps me out of Windo...nope, no badmouthing.

Hey, it's a suite.  :)  But...I use it when I really really need 
to send/recieve .doc files.  Not often.

The Graphic Designer here uses Draw for some stuff, but I'm leading 
her to InkScape and the GIMP.  She's a big GIMP fan now.

I would like it, but it would have to be done right. We'd need to 
make:

- A kick ass text renderer/type setter
- A kick ass spreadsheet cell renderer
- A kick ass drawing program


The rest kicks ass already, and will even more so when R3 comes out. 
When those components would be done, you build the UI around that.

Microsoft takes Silverlight (Flash alternative) beyond Windows, allows 
support for dynamic and scripting languages too:


http://news.com.com/Microsoft+takes+Silverlight+beyond+Windows/2100-1012_3-6180322.html?tag=nefd.top

this IS the future:
http://news.com.com/1606-2_3-6180198.html?tag=ne.video.6180335\

some cool tech MS purchased a while back, which they are starting 
to show off publicly...


I actually played with the hand manipulated stuff myself and its 
amazing... as siggraph, 2 years ago.

it's not compiled... just XML and javascript... I really don't know, 
if I would like to write rich apps in XML... but it looks it nice 
adept for a new Rebol dialect:]

and the main web page is really big piece of s..t... I will update 
my proxy to cound number of MB which I have to download to see simple 
webpage with no effects

the first demo of these was a collaborative dj sessions where pucks 
would represent sounds and volumes of speakers... the distance between 
the pucks would relate their weight, so if you had the left speaker 
and slid it across a few sounds, it would play them.

since they are all loops, you can interactively edit your jam and 
add sounds, just by sliding them near speakers..

all the menus are on the table extremely fluid (much more that what 
we saw from MS)  and very beautifull arcing curves  :-)

maxim - your flow data engine should handle that too, no? As much 
as we can create grid in rebol (well, or at least rebservices), and 
generate events using R3, we can distribute those events. In fact, 
that would be nice demo for plug-in - do some drawing board, shared

Reichart;  You rat b#$%&@d you.  (He said with a big smile)  I promised 
the graphic

designer we'd go for a live trial run today.  I've done nothing but 
twiddle with D all

morning.  :)  To be honest, I place C++ at the bottom of my "likey" 
pile, maybe more 

from being pigheaded, than deserved merit.  (I tried to respect Bjarne's 
work.  I and

I can only assume he has a Computer IQ in the very high hundreds.) 

I expected the same from D.  Not so. You rat b@&%$#d.  (Again, with 
a nice big
friendly smile).  I have work to do today.

Yoouuu....Sandie won't be happy....And she knows what you look like...from 
the
DevCon site.  :)  I may have to deflect half the beating...

Office: Take a look at softmaker stuff. Small, fast and complete: 
http://www.textmaker.de

interesting video on using mixed languages and .net http://sessions.visitmix.com/default.asp?event=1011&session=2012&pid=DEV02&disc=&id=1511&year=2007&search=DEV02

Reichart: It's smaller, faster and IMO more streamlined. Really good. 
And it's price is very fair.

Reichart, seen the Etoilé desktop? Early concepts of it shows how 
apps are banished and everything is made up of smaller bits which 
you put together to an "app". You do it on the fly.

Reichart;  We (a dev team) duked it out way back with Word for DOS. 
 It was a

complete waste of our time.  We handed management a text file with 
some fairly

complex technical information and a "beautiful" word doc, full of 
near gibberish.

Management picked the gibberish doc...it looked better, to pass up 
the line.  We

giggled, then informed him of the insider joke, and spent the day 
wrestling with

Word to make the real tech spec "look good".  Sex sells.  When we 
wanted a

faster network, the document started with "Your pipe is very small" 
 No manager
wanted a small pipe! Very effective.

I'm glad I don't have to deal with this kind of management... Brian, 
I've read stories about how network equipment purchases were based 
on how many blinking lights there were on the front panel and how 
an admin created a fake light panel to get his manager off his back, 
because the manager complained that the equipment "wasn't doing anything".


I know it can't get this simple, but management should never be a 
position you could get hired directly into... it should be a position 
one can only advance to through plain skill.

Well, to be fair.  I wouldn't really want techs running a large corporation. 
 Skill sets

are skill sets and techs are good at techie and (most) bosses are 
good at money
(and requisitioning bigger pipes).

Your pipes are very small
 LOL, and smart...

I've been following the Silverlight and DLR developments a lot this 
week. It seems to me that this would be a good way to get REBOL in 
the browser. You could market a REBOL based on the DLR as a /Services 
integration library. Rebol Universal Services Transport, a way to 
bind all of those Iron languages to light-as-air REBOL/Services :)

I would like it to completely ban the use of actual apps and just 
rely on services to do everything. And then on top of that, make 
the whole damn thing scriptable. It would be a hell of a bold move, 
but I think it would work.

They are talking about banning the concept of files, and rely fully 
on persistent stores, but there is still not a solution on how to 
do that.

What's the difference between a service and an app? 

PickOS used a DB as it's file system.

and its fully scriptable  :-)  antidote is actually used BY the GUI 
instead of coding many of the things internally... for example, all 
hotkeys are actually within an external file with character and command 
scripts which applied when that key is pressend and no focus is detected.

Services are small. They do one single thing and they do that one 
thing very well. OSX has them and they've been there for ages, but 
the system only relies on them for manipulating things in apps, not 
to construct ad hoc apps themselves. How often have you not wanted 
a cool feature from program X in program Y and vice versa? This would 
do the trick.

in etoile they still consider a "desktop" to be a viable and intuitive 
interface... when in fact it isn't

Gregg, compare it to how you use your real life items, like a paper, 
a pencil, eraser, etc. Grandma does not want to know that she has 
to open Word or some <weird open source name app> to write a document. 
She wants a piece of paper. A service will give her a piece of paper 
as a view port. On the technical side, you don't load a bajillion 
features into memory that you don't need, only a viewport and a text 
renderer.

hearing and seeing alan kay in the last few days has only solidified 
many of my ideas.  One capital sentence he repeats:


Adults have too many context and concepts, to be able to think simply 
and understand the most basic ideas.   kids have a "fresh" take on 
things... and they are much better at chosing simple things.

elixir, for example will seem like a bizare work environment for 
some, I guess, but its sooo simple, it needs no real learning... 
actually, the only thing people will have to learn is the panels 
which people will add to interface the internals... but at least 
we will be able to SEE the relationships and associations they have 
with the "innards"

Maxim, yes, it's because we go to school. When I went to public school 
I liked electronics and wanted to work with it. I found it fun and 
could even put together little circuits that did fun stuff. When 
I became an engineer, the fun went away and everything became immensely 
complex, so what I had learned as a kid, I lost.

The goal of elixir, is to get many people writing VERY small procedures 
and tasks.

 A service will give her a piece of paper as a view port.

 -- But what features does the service provide, and when does it become 
 an application? i.e. how do you save something, find something you 
 wrote before, add spell checking, print something, etc. These are 
 things that can be answered in different ways, and I think we'll 
 see a lot more big changes in software in the next 10 years.

electronic paper already exists and is being sold by sony as a small 
book reader... no back lit.  0 consumption until you edit the page.

things like that and gestural workflow.

Gregg, you don't save anything. Like the piece of paper, the information 
is persistent the moment you write on it. How they want you to access 
documents, I'm not sure they are done working that out. I suppose 
that services that are tied together exist in contexts, so that putting 
text writing, printing and spell checking together makes sense, while 
bitmap painting and spell checking does not.

Speaking of which: I'd love to see a way in Rebol to declare a piece 
of data persistent across sessions, so it would save automatically 
and you would not have to worry about it.

Yes, the whole "not saving" thing has been done before, but we haven't 
pushed far enough in that regard. Anyone remember Lotus Agenda? That 
was one smart app, and that's how you can auto-file things and find 
them again easily. 


The concept of a persistent image, ala Smalltalk, has also come up 
before. I think Maarten wanted to do something like that, but it's 
not a simple thing to do.