AltME groups: search

Yes, I never do that Henrik. I've used a number of systems over the 
years (I think I posted my enlist script on rebol.org), and now generally 
use build and encap scripts, with Ladislav's INCLUDE as the foundation. 
In the encap script I include all the reshacker stuff to set the 
icon and version info.

I even prebol stuff manually before calling the encap it allows for 
a bit more flexibility and control over the whole process.

Gregg, that would be a good tutorial on encapping with the Gregg 
method. I don't do much encapping so each time is a hit or miss and 
I reshack manually which adds to the time.

I'll put it on my to-do list. I'm caught up up through 1993 now. 


The biggest pain with reshacker is version info. I couldn't get it 
to work with version resources as quickly as I wanted so I cheated 
and pump keystrokes to it.

I have a quick and dirty project generator that spits out the basics 
for simple REBOL projects. I'm not sure it's worth publishing, but 
I'm happy to pass it on to anyone who wants to review and comment.

Gregg, your work is always appreciated. And yes, I spent a few hours 
with version info myself the last time I had the great idea to change 
that. Which just reminded me that I wonder if I bothered to write 
down what did work... Oh, the insanity, oh the inanity.

Does 2.7.7 fix some probs with win 7. I know they worked on install 
issues with vista and win7 but perhaps other win7 stuff was worked 
on. I'm not using the updated sdk but I will get the update if it 
fixes these issues.

works fine in viista and xp

Just tested a couple here, and they worked fine. Is it a normal PC, 
or could there be some odd video driver issue going on?

If you are bored and have the time to test it i'd appreciate it. 
Here is the link to the program: http://firecaptainnyc.com//clientfiles/captain.exe

When it first runs (if) it will download some support files and a 
large database (100megs).

Thanks Gregg...Now what! 


I'll have to get my hands on a win 7 machine and play with it I guess...

just thought I'd share my positive experience with a little app I 
just downloaded which *finally* makes creating icons for rebol easy 
and free:


the editing is simple, but its batch mode is really fast and it works 
very well!   just select one file, select all the resolutions you 
need (check out the rebol icon first) and go.

in 2 seconds you have an icon for use by rebol!

I checked a few sites and they all claim it to be free of malware 

http://icofx.ro/

and it doesn't happen with sdk 2.7.6 ?

Yes, it worked with the older SDKs (at least that's the only change 
I can recognize). The .res and .ico files are all the same.

not enough memory

 ... that's happened in the past for me after icon sizes and color 
 depth values have changed. You may have to recreate the icon set.

with icofx, extract the rebol icon, and look at all its sizes/color 
depths.    then open batchmode, import the image you want to use, 
tick only those which are in the rebol icon, press OK.

and use the result icon in reshacker  with:

call rejoin ["reshacker  -addoverwrite " exe-path "," exe-path "," 
icon-path ",ICONGROUP,REBOL,1033"]

paths, being absolute and in os-local form

I've seen that before .. and I just encap it again and sometimes 
it goes away

and the one for bsd is free :)

and 2.7.8 ????

there's always a lag between the 2 release and the SDK.  And these 
days there's a charge for updates for the SDK.

ver: copy ""
call/output "ver" ver

works in xp and vista

Strangly it would run the first time on install (sdk version) but 
never there after, and it would not run from script.

I'm lost with SDK builds for Linux. What is the difference between 
4.2 (Libc6) and 4.3 (Fedora)? Is 4.3 really Fedora-only specific?

It's just the build platform, but it may determine on what other 
systems it does and doesn't work

4.2 Should be an older Ubuntu. In theory, that should produce good 
compatibility, but View is unreliable on Fedora and other newer systems, 
hence the Fedora build

Usually, versions of the GLibC C library and X11 graphics are much 
more critical than the kernel

Ironically, all it seems I have to do is post a question somewhere 
and then I find the answer on the internet.  I've been trying to 
figure that out for several days off and on.  Post the question, 
go back to the internet and then find the answer.  
Here it is:  system/script/args
its a string.
hope this helps someone else.

solution to this is to ask the question and then not go search the 
internet :)

I have a problem with SDK on Windows. when I start rebcmd.exe it 
crashes immediately everytime, just after the REBOL/Command window 
appears.

And also when I encap a simple script using encmd.exe, the output 
file also crashes with REBOL Internal Error: Boot error: 316


Am I doing something wrong? I used drag & drop, interactive etc. 
modes.

And also when I encap with enface.exe or encmdview.exe, it works, 
but it says "layout has no value".

But still rebcmd.exe crashes immediately when I start it. I tried 
on XP Pro SP3 and XP Home SP3.

And the executable file produced by encmd.exe also crashes also with 
REBOL Internal Error: Boot error 316.
Can anyone confirm that?

which version of the sdk?  I don't have the latest and mine work 
fine.

Ok, it looks rebcmd crash problem apeeared in 2.7.7.3.1 and we need 
to wait for next SDK update. Won't be soon I think.

I bought it just 2 days ago. But I think there is no SDK for 2.7.8.

When I click on "REBOL/SDK 2.7.8 Released 9-Jan-2011" link on rebol.com 
website it goes to http://www.rebol.com/sdk.htmland there is a message 
"We have posted the 2.7.7 SDK packages for a variety of platforms." 
A bit confusing. But there is just 2.7.7 on download page.

Ok now I found the URL to download SDK 2.7.8. There is download URL 
for 2.7.7 in the email that RT send me when I purchase. I changed 
the url and find the 2.7.8.

But I got 404 not found when I try 2.7.6. I'll send a msg to RT. 
Thank you.

May I use my license file for all of them? 2.7.6 to 2.7.8, or do 
I need to request a new license file as well?

Ok, my license file works with 2.7.8 also. And rebcmd.exe does not 
crash. Executable compiled with encmd.exe also does not crash.

I was not aware that Nenads call also supports output. 
And indeed win-call/output was not working for me.

So far 2.7.5. 2.6.2, 2.5.6 and 2.5.125 is working for me, but the 
cmd window is annoying, especially as my calls take a long time.

I use win-call/output in the Red testing framework - it works on 
both Win/XP and Win/7 under REBOL 2.7.8

The best what I get with e.g >> win-call/output "dir"  str: make 
string! 1024  is  either "The operation completed successfully." 
and then an empty file with the name "call-error-695.log" and following 
"A file can not be created if it already exists."
But this problem probably belongs to cheyene e.a. .groups,.

The biggest issue with CALL on different versions is whether you 
use a version that requires /SHOW, which was added in newer releases 
and causes some compatibility issues. If your process works without 
showing the window, it shouldn't much matter (unless you go waaaayyy 
back).

Folks, I'd like to use encryption, to encrypt some json records and 
deploy it to the browser and decrypt it using this algorithm at  
http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/javascrypt.html

I'd like to encrypt json text using Rebol and AES encryption. And 
decrypt this using javascript. Do you have any idea how to do this 
using Rebol. I mean the AES encryption. I mean : txt: "blablablba" 
 key: #CEDEFF.. encrypt  txt key   ...  using AES rhinjael algorithm 
.. thanks

rondon,

you have to check that the choosen encryption scheme is compatible 
on both sides. at least SHA-1 / MD5 should work.

here you have some javasript routines:
	http://www.movable-type.co.uk/scripts/sha1.html
	http://pajhome.org.uk/crypt/md5/index.html

howto rebol:
http://www.rebol.com/docs/words/wchecksum.html


just send some test data and adjust the encryption scheme at the 
javasript side.

with luck, the rebol implementation is suitable for the routines 
above.

TomBon: hashing and encryption are not the same thing.

Gab, at the time I asked if anyone had any success in this ... and 
there was no one.

crypt: func [
    "Encrypts or decrypts data and returns the result."
    data [any-string!] "Data to encrypt or decrypt"
    akey [binary!] "The encryption key"
    /decrypt "Decrypt the data"
    /binary "Produce binary decryption result."
    /local port
][
    port: open [
        scheme: 'crypt
        direction: pick [encrypt decrypt] not decrypt
        key: akey
        padding: true
    ]
    insert port data
    update port
    data: copy port
    close port
    if all [decrypt not binary] [data: to-string data]
    data
]

REBOL [
Title: "ARCFOUR and CipherSaber"
Date: 17-Jan-2004
File: %arcfour.r
Author: "Cal Dixon"

Purpose: {Provides encryption and decryption using the ARCFOUR algorithm}

Note: {this implementation can decrypt data at about 40KB/s on my 
1Ghz AMD Duron system with Rebol/View 1.2.10.3.1}
Library: [
level: 'advanced
platform: 'all
type: [function module protocol]
domain: [encryption scheme]
tested-under: [view 1.2.10.3.1 on [W2K] by "Cal"]
license: 'PD
support: none
]
]


;ARCFOUR specification: http://www.mozilla.org/projects/security/pki/nss/draft-kaukonen-cipher-arcfour-03.txt

;CipherSabre specification: http://ciphersaber.gurus.com/faq.html#getrc4


arcfour-short: func [key [string! binary!] stream [binary! string!] 
/mix n /local state i j output swap addmod sz][

swap: func [a b s /local][ local: sz s a poke s a + 1 to-char sz 
s b poke s b + 1 to-char local ]
addmod: func [ a b ][ a + b // 256 ]
sz: func [ s a ][ pick s a + 1 ]

state: make binary! 256 repeat var 256 [ insert tail state to-char 
var - 1 ]

j: 0 loop any [ n 1 ] [ i: 0 loop 256 [ swap i j: addmod j add sz 
state i sz key i // length? key state i: i + 1] ]
i: j: 0 output: make binary! length? stream
repeat byte stream [
swap i: addmod i 1 j: addmod j sz state i state

insert tail output to-char xor~ byte to-char sz state addmod (sz 
state i) (sz state j)
]
clear state
return output
] 

make root-protocol [
addmod: addmod: func [ a b ][ a + b // 256 ]
sz: func [ s a ][ pick s a + 1 ]

swap: func [a b s /local][ local: sz s a poke s a + 1 to-char sz 
s b poke s b + 1 to-char local ]
ins: get in system/words 'insert
i: 0 j: 0
open: func [port][
port/state/tail: 2000
port/state/index: 0
port/state/flags: port/state/flags or port-flags

port/locals: context [ inbuffer: make binary! 40000 state: make binary! 
256]
use [key n i j] [
key: port/key
n: port/strength
repeat var 256 [ ins tail port/locals/state to-char var - 1 ]
j: 0 loop any [ n 1 ] [
i: 0 loop 256 [

swap i j: addmod j add sz port/locals/state i sz key i // length? 
key port/locals/state i: i + 1
]
]
]
i: j: 0
]
insert: func [port data][
system/words/insert tail port/locals/inbuffer data do []
]
copy: func [port /local output][
output: make binary! local: length? port/locals/inbuffer
loop local [

swap i: addmod i 1 j: addmod j sz port/locals/state i port/locals/state

ins tail output to-char sz port/locals/state addmod (sz port/locals/state 
i) (sz port/locals/state j)
]
local: xor~ output port/locals/inbuffer
clear port/locals/inbuffer
local
]

close: func [port][ clear port/locals/inbuffer clear port/locals/state 
clear port/url clear port/key]
port-flags: system/standard/port-flags/pass-thru
net-utils/net-install arcfour self 0
]

arcfour: func [key stream /mix n /local port][
port: open compose [scheme: 'arcfour key: (key) strength: (n)]
insert port stream
local: copy port
close port
return local
]


; CipherSaber is an ARCFOUR stream prepended with 10 bytes of random 
key data
ciphersaber: func [ key stream /v2 n ][

arcfour/mix join key copy/part stream 10 skip stream 10 either v2 
[ any [ n 42 ] ][ 1 ]
]

Rondon, Using Rebol View 2.7.8.3.1 on Win/XP I ran your test and 
decrypt gives back "This is a string"

gab, right. e.g md5 for simple password security and rsa for dataflow. 
the javascript link above containing RSA functions too just to step 
in.

Graham: IIRC Maarten was able to use AES with REBOL and OpenSSL. 
I seem to remember that I had tried that and was successful as well. 
In any case, the only reason I can think of that would make it not 
work is a difference in the IV and padding.

That's how imo SSL support should be implemented - not as an hardwired 
C implementation, but using Rebol crypto facilities, and being part 
of Core, not Command ...

Doc: the code is in sort of "prototype state" and It was meant as 
possible implementation for R3 in future (once Carl put the encryption 
algorithms codebase into the R3/host-kit or someone write an extension 
for that).

I wrote it because I wanted to know if we could get rid of unnecesary 
C code that is currently in R2 to just handle the protocol logic 
while the performance of the crypto algorithms will remain in C. 
The current size is less than 20Kb of Rebol script code so IMO it 
could be useful and also easier maintainable way.

Currently it works in client-side mode only but there is already 
support for ASN.1 certificates also I tried to write the code so 
the server-side mode and other cipher-suites shouldn't be hard to 
add.

I plan to release the prototype to open public after some cleanup 
but if you want to waste some time with the current 'raw stuff' just 
post me privately and I'll send you a copy.

The iPhone is locked down, and not even open source.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/01/12/apple_lockdown_iphone/

He characterized HP's results as 'amazing' and said it had the potential 
to extend indefinitely the reach of Moore's Law which posits that 
the power of microchips will double every 18 months.

uh...............no....

hum... someone in the comments explains and rebuffs the patent and 
describes that the idea actually cannot really deliver more than 
1% of the theoretical numbers claimed by the patent...  which would 
bring it at about the same levels as current top of the line batteries.

another person also explains how the batterie's reaction to thermal 
changes might be rather high (50% power fluctuation between cold 
and hot temps)

US answer to global warming: smoke and giant space mirrors http://environment.guardian.co.uk/climatechange/story/0,,1999968,00.html

Looks like the US answer is all smoke and mirrors

Adobe Systems today announced that it has released the full PDF (Portable 
Document Format) 1.7 specification to AIIM, the Association for Information 
and Image Management. AIIM, in turn, will start working on making 
PDF an ISO standard.

I use firebug since more than a year, and we all use it heavily in 
the qtask team. it's really great. oldes: maybe it has problems with 
some other extension you have installed?

I have onlu AdBlock and NoScript. But don't have such a problem. 
I disabled the firebug now as I don't need it and when I will need 
it in the future I can enable it again and live with my mouse wheel 
blocked a little bit for a while:)

Marketing Ideas to lawyers
AN ARTICLE FROM SUNDAY'S NEW YORK TIMES WE SHOULD READ CAREFULLY.


Awaiting the Day When Everyone Writes Software

By JASON PONTIN
Published: January 28, 2007

BJARNE STROUSTRUP, the designer of C++, the most influential programming 
language of the last 25 years, has said that “our technological civilization 
depends on software.” True, but most software isn’t much good. Too 
many programs are ugly: inelegant, unreliable and not very useful. 
Software that satisfies and delights is as rare as a phoenix.

Skip to next paragraph

Sergei Remezov/Reuters

Charles Simonyi, chief executive of Intentional Software, in training 
for his trip to the International Space Station, scheduled for April.

Multimedia
Podcast: Weekend Business

Reporters and editors from The Times's Sunday Business section offer 
perspective on the week in business and beyond.

How to Subscribe

All this does more than frustrate computer users. Bad software is 
terrible for business and the economy. Software failures cost $59.5 
billion a year, the National Institute of Standards and Technology 
concluded in a 2002 study, and fully 25 percent of commercial software 
projects are abandoned before completion. Of projects that are finished, 
75 percent ship late or over budget.


The reasons aren’t hard to divine. Programmers don’t know what a 
computer user wants because they spend their days interacting with 
machines. They hunch over keyboards, pecking out individual lines 
of code in esoteric programming languages, like medieval monks laboring 
over illustrated manuscripts.


Worse, programs today contain millions of lines of code, and programmers 
are fallible like all other humans: there are, on average, 100 to 
150 bugs per 1,000 lines of code, according to a 1994 study by the 
Software Engineering Institute at Carnegie Mellon University. No 
wonder so much software is so bad: programmers are drowning in ignorance, 
complexity and error.


Charles Simonyi, the chief executive of Intentional Software, a start-up 
in Bellevue, Wash., believes that there is another way. He wants 
to overthrow conventional coding for something he calls “intentional 
programming,” in which programmers would talk to machines as little 
as possible. Instead, they would concentrate on capturing the intentions 
of computer users.


Mr. Simonyi, the former chief architect of Microsoft, is arguably 
the most successful pure programmer in the world, with a personal 
fortune that Forbes magazine estimates at $1 billion. There may be 
richer programmer-billionaires — Bill Gates of Microsoft and Larry 
Page of Google come to mind — but they became rich by founding and 
managing technology ventures; Mr. Simonyi rose mainly by writing 
code.


He designed Microsoft’s most successful applications, Word and Excel, 
and he devised the programming method that the company’s software 
developers have used for the last quarter-century. Mr. Simonyi, 58, 
was important before he joined Microsoft in 1981, too. He belongs 
to the fabled generation of supergeeks who invented personal computing 
at Xerox PARC in the 1970s: there, he wrote the first modern application, 
a word processor called Bravo that displayed text on a computer screen 
as it would appear when printed on page.


Even at leisure, Mr. Simonyi, who was born in Hungary and taught 
himself programming by punching machine code on Russian mainframes, 
is a restless, expansive personality. In April, he will become the 
fifth space tourist, paying $20 million to board a Russian Soyuz 
rocket and visit the International Space Station.


Mr. Simonyi says he is not disgusted with big, bloated, buggy programs 
like Word and Excel. But he acknowledges that he is disappointed 
that we have been unable to use “our incredible computational ability” 
to address efficiently “our practical computational problems.”


“Software is truly the bottleneck in the high-tech horn of plenty,” 
he said.


Mr. Simonyi began thinking about a new method for creating software 
in the mid-1990s, while he was still at Microsoft. But his ideas 
were so at odds with .Net, the software environment that Microsoft 
was building then, that he left the company in 2002 to found Intentional 
Software.


“It was impractical, when Microsoft was making tremendous strides 
with .Net, to send somebody out from the same organization who says, 
‘What if you did things in this other, more disruptive way?’ ” he 
said in the January issue of Technology Review.


For once, that overfavored word — “disruptive” — is apt; intentional 
programming is disruptive. It would automate much of software development.


The method begins with the intentions of the people inside an organization 
who know what a program should do. Mr. Simonyi calls these people 
“domain experts,” and he expects them to work with programmers to 
list all the concepts the software must possess.


The concepts are then translated into a higher-level representation 
of the software’s functions called the domain code, using a tool 
called the domain workbench.


At two conferences last fall, Intentional Software amazed software 
developers by demonstrating how the workbench could project the intentions 
of domain experts into a wonderful variety of forms. Using the workbench, 
domain experts and programmers can imagine the program however they 
want: as something akin to a PowerPoint presentation, as a flow chart, 
as a sketch of what they want the actual user screen to look like, 
or in the formal logic that computer scientists love.


Thus, programmers and domain experts can fiddle with whatever projections 
they prefer, editing and re-editing until both parties are happy. 
Only then is the resulting domain code fed to another program called 
a generator that manufactures the actual target code that a computer 
can compile and run. If the software still doesn’t do what its users 
want, the programmers can blithely discard the target code and resume 
working on the domain workbench with the domain experts.


As an idea, intentional programming is similar to the word processor 
that Mr. Simonyi developed at PARC. In the jargon of programming, 
Bravo was Wysiwyg — an acronym, pronounced WIZ-e-wig, for “what you 
see is what you get.” Intentional programming also allows computer 
users to see and change what they are getting.


“Programming is very complicated,” Mr. Simonyi said. “Computer languages 
are really computer-oriented. But we can make it possible for domain 
experts to provide domain information in their own terms which then 
directly contributes to the production of the software.”


Intentional programming has three great advantages: The people who 
design a program are the ones who understand the task that needs 
to be automated; that design can be manipulated simply and directly, 
rather than by rewriting arcane computer code; and human programmers 
do not generate the final software code, thus reducing bugs and other 
errors.


NOT everyone believes in the promise of intentional programming. 
There are three common objections.


The first is theoretical: it is based on the belief that human intention 
cannot, in principle, be captured (or, less metaphysically, that 
computer users don’t know what people want).


The second is practical: to programmers, the intentional method constitutes 
an “abstraction” of the underlying target code. But most programmers 
believe that abstractions “leak” — that is, they fail to perfectly 
represent the thing they are meant to be abstracting, which means 
software developers must sink their hands into the code anyway.


The final objection is cynical: Mr. Simonyi has been working on intentional 
programming for many years; only two companies, bound to silence 
by nondisclosure agreements, acknowledge experimenting with the domain 
workbench and generator. Thus, no one knows if intentional programming 
works.


Sheltered by Mr. Simonyi’s wealth, Intentional Software seems in 
no hurry to release an imperfect product. But it is addressing real 
and pressing problems, and Mr. Simonyi’s approach is thrillingly 
innovative.


If intentional programming does what its inventor says, we may have 
something we have seldom enjoyed as computer users: software that 
makes us glad.


Jason Pontin is the editor in chief and publisher of Technology Review, 
a magazine and Web site owned by M.I.T. E-mail: [pontin-:-nytimes-:-com].

oops .. had my cache set to 10000 so I can see some old messages 
...and that made scrolling somewhat problematic

Reichart, I read the article, and my opinion is, that you will always 
need good programmers, no matter what abstraction you make to the 
problem.

A good programmer (or more general: developer) can something, a typical 
user can't. The developer can - based on logic - see the consequences 
of different rules within the software. When users are alloud to 
decide, how the software should work, you always end up with something, 
which will break logically, when some situation occur. A good developer 
can think of that beforehand and make sure, the whole system of rules 
makes sense and do the right thing, whatever will happen. The user 
may be happy for a while, if she "designed" the software, but a little 
later it'll break down logically, and she'll loose money and time 
again.

you will always need good programmers


We strongly disagree, in fact the time of no need for programmers 
is probably closer than we (programmers) want. 


AI will one day be good enough to solve domain problems.  The architecture 
of computer systems will be self correcting, responsive, and self 
writing one day.


Software will fix itself in response to millions if not billions 
of people reacting to using it, and it will slowly and systematically 
correct itself, improve itself, and even offer new features simply 
for test.  In other words, software will eventually self evolve.

Consider nothing more than a routine that studies what options people 
select for themselves.  I reset my Word (and anything else I have 
control over) to *always* use Helvetica.  I *always* set my WinAmp 
to be "Always on top".  When I walk up to an ATM, I *never* select 
"Spanish".  When I get in my car I *never* want the radio "ON"


What if people's settings were simply gathered in a central database. 
 Categorized, etc.  What if every button on software had a unique 
ID, and a genus, and like senses or never endings created stronger 
connection in the database by how often they were pressed… 

The species of button called "Play | Pause" would be very strong.
It's brother "FF | RW" would be pretty well connected as well.

and like senses or never endings created

should be

and like sensors or nerve endings created

That is so sad that it scares you.


Does it scare you that "your" people no longer have a job which is 
to collect the buckets of feces from people's homes.  There is no 
longer a guy in town that cuts hair AND pulls teeth?  That there 
is no work for the guy that stored ice from, and delivered it to 
homes?  


What about the entire industry that used to wash clothes with their 
hands, or WHAT ABOUT all the scribes (monks) those pesky Germans 
put out of business with that automatic machine that made copies 
of copies instantly.


Sundanda, untrue.  You are blinded by your own time frame and reference. 
 Don't look at what was promised or what can be done, look at what 
was not talked about and "IS"

Needless shots
Flat screens
In-ear wireless communication
Solar power (PV) 
Microwave ovens 

Glues (I can name 50 amazing adhesives that have changed the word)
Growable organs
UCAVs (Robots in the sky).

Your life "IS" longer, and better, way better.

The top 10 things that might have killed you 100 years ago are not 
even on the list today.

I think that the end-of-programming predictions come true all of 
the time. It's just that the new systems require work as well, and 
though that work is often very different, people call the new work 
"programming". So, since there are still people "programming" people 
think that the prediction failed. It didn't fail - the concept was 
just redesigned to match the new needs.

and our precious spelling will be ...quaint

Tomc, yeah, I've heard that joke told about FORTRAN and COBOL, and 
lately Java and C++.

It's mostly the addition of new concepts, and changing patterns in 
grammar that come from mixing in other languages and cultures. The 
new words are almost incidental.

wether its sifting through an audio library with your fingers and 
cardboard with vinyl inside... or browsing on your ipod...

Sometimes it's good to remember that the terms "computer" and "database" 
predate electronics, or even electrical devices.

I know I'm not saying anything revolutionary... but "programming" 
has always been around us.  and since we will foreseeably continue 
to use machines... we'll always do so in the future... I only guess 
that in 50 years, we'll be making AI apps which learn concepts.  
and the interface to these systems will be more easy to use... but 
there will always be people who do work for others...

I myself am working on a concept which would significantly change 
the perspective on how "intelligent machines" computers and what 
have not... are used.

Reichart, about AI, if the AI does the programming, then the AI is 
the programmer. Note, that I don't see any reason why we should not 
consider the AI a "person". (if we don't, and the AI eventually kills 
all of us, I won't blame "it")

Reichart, I wouldn't worry too much. What you're talking about require 
true AI, and we're not even close to have that. First we need computer 
technology based on quantum physics, then we need someone to build 
the system. I don't see this happen any time soon.

I'm not worried at all, and I'm privy to project in AI that are already 
demonstrating very impressive results.  


Systematic automation of a large quantity of currently menial jobs 
will occur in dramatic proportions in the next 50 years.


Where are the secretaries of yesterday?  The banks and rooms of young 
ladies typing away?


Several years ago the FDIC (American banking overview group), mandated 
Electronic fund transfer over paper.  Who suffered?  10,000 pilots 
lost their jobs.  Since they were not union, no one made a fuss in 
the news.  They used to fly boxes of receipts from place to place.


Instead of asking what jobs will be lost, think of it in terms of 
what jobs are people currently doing that simply don't need to be 
done a person.


It is so odd to me how people (even smart people) hold on to the 
past like a dog with an old bone.


No AI was needed to replace these jobs.  Are these young ladies without 
work?  Are all these lads no longer flying.  NOPE.


There are more jobs for people that can type than any time in history. 
 And pilots are in huge demand, as the prices of private planes have 
dramatically fallen (Honda is releasing a plane!) the private executive 
sector has grown.

but real AI has the potential to replace a majority of jobs.  that 
is the issue... not just a type of job.  AI means downloadable and 
infinitely replicatable things you purchase once and abuse forever.

obviously one will say that you will have more AI tech and robot 
techs... but  when you look at the textile industry... in america, 
the places which make profit have very little employes.  apply this 
to the whole manufacturing process... where you don't need to build 
costly custom equipment but rather a generic worker bot.  then it 
start getting a bit scarier... my guess is that the countries with 
the most to loose with AI are places like india and china... which 
the west is using as an equivalent to AI.

Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft - and the
only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor.
- Wernher von Braun (1912- 1977)

In the past century, so called "capitalist" knew his people. His 
motives and intention was to make a money, but he needed those ppl. 
In today's world, we suffer badly from globalisation. Only numbers 
are important. CZ is often so called off-shore development country. 
So, one of last built factories here is factory built by Citroen, 
Toyota, Peugeot (http://www.tpca-cz.com/cz/) They produce 1 car 
in 1 minute? My friend from IBM, visiting the factory told me, that 
he got really strange feeling about it. The autiomatition is so hig, 
that ppl do what robots can't do effectively. Actually those ppl 
do look like robots. Imo even worse situation is with Ahold and similar 
global companies, where TV helped to uncover some unhuman treatment 
of employees.

AI is a radical change, and as such, it could shake things enough 
to let people out of the Matrix.

It is so odd to me how people (even smart people) hold on to the 
past like a dog with an old bone.

True, that's not very clever, because everything is changing all 
the time. I'll give you, that the traditional typist will be replaced 
by something smarter, but talking about programmers, I think more 
in the term of system developers. And as I see it, there will be 
greater demands for good developers in the future.

It's great that AI is replacing jobs. We don't live in 19th century 
where our grand-grand-fathers destroyed machines because they took 
their jobs away. But, please, can somebody write some AI to replace 
middle management? I don't think it's hard to write something that 
does forward emails, produces lot of useless *.XLS and *.PPT, does 
not understand a bit of what the team is doing and in the end collects 
bonus for the team's work.

Oh I see, there's the problem. The AI couldn't probably collect the 
bonus and paying to people who actually did some work is not in the 
interest of succesful, young & dynamic company.

There are so many technological fields opening up as more things 
are made possible. I imagine one could apply for a job as an astronaut 
in 50 years, if you are fit enough and remember to eat your daily 
slim-fit foodpill. What about the stabilization and development of 
poor countries in 50 years?  If they are going to be as consuming 
and as productive in 50 years as an industrial country is today, 
then there is going to be millions of new jobs available. Technology 
and progress make far more jobs than they destroy.

Technology and progress make far more jobs than they destroy.

Technology and progress make far more jobs than they destroy.

Technology and progress make far more jobs than they destroy.

I don't think so. I don't see where this (mis-)conception comes from 
(as I have friends telling the same). Of course there will always 
be new technologies and these need people developing them and the 
like. But since we started the industrial revolution and especially 
since the information-age, people get (luckily) less and less important 
and needed. Also we just need so many programmers nowadays because 
the state of the industry is still in its infancy and there is still 
no real solution to the complexity problem very much apparent here. 
In a more ideal world there wouldn't even be so much progammers needed, 
just to fix bugs and do all kinds of things which should be automized.

In the past the majority of people fed themself. So many people were 
kind of self-employed, just to live. In the industrial age we still 
didn't have his much automation, so people were needed to fill this 
gap, even though they were getting more and more fed by less farmers. 
But this need for man-power is declining now, it's just not that 
obvious because there are so and so many countries where labor is 
still cheaper than the machines, but that's not gonna last.

Remember PA Semi? The company has just released, as promised, its 
first chipset. "They are full 64-bit PPC, support virtualisation, 
and would do Alitvec but that name is copyrighted by Freescale. Instead 
they do 'VMA'. The three parts run at a max wattage of 25, 15 and 
10W for the 2.0, 1.5 and 1.0GHz parts respectively, with typical 
wattage listed at 13, 8 and 6W. The individual cores are said to 
have a 7W max and 4W typical power consumption at 2.0GHz." PA Semi 
was one of the prime reasons why Ars's John 'Hannibal' Stokes doubted 
Apple's reasoning for the switch to Intel.

https://jogl-demos.dev.java.net/- another java-opengl lib. with 
webstart and applet-demos.  Needs a little bit polishing, but i am 
not sure the flash-runtime has thatmch advantages.  Tested with firefox/linux.

It would be really nice to have possibility to interact with Rebol 
and hardware like in these java examples one day:) But the examples 
are quite huge. I have to download 7.7MB to see one demo. I'm looking 
forward, what it will do:)

all leads to the conclusion this will be possible (and possibly even 
easy :-) with R3

I was running this one and it was slow - http://download.java.net/media/jogl/builds/archive/jsr-231-webstart-current/JRefractNoOGL.jnlp

:]working here... and this one is quite fast:)