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Yes, I think it will be the easiest and simplest solution.

ok, i will think more about the problem (still hope to find some 
kind of nice solution), and see what others think too.

Reichart, I'm still learning about TeX, but I'll guess, LaTeX to 
PDF take output from LaTeX (a TeX document) and convert it to the 
PDF format. To see output from LaTeX, you still need a TeX engine 
to view the document in the final form. Convert it to PDF, and you 
just need a PDF viewer.

(the table dialect is still very basic, just for testing. table layout 
seems to work well, uses the total-fit algorithm and should create 
optimal layouts in most usual cases. there are boundary cases where 
it can fail, but i hope we won't need to worry about them. check 
test.pdf for an example of a table.)

Currently only English.  But I'm needing to print Greek, Indonesian, 
and English mixed on the same page. Also, Hebrew, Indonesian, English 
on the same page. To be more specific,  a line of Greek, then a line 
of Indonesian, then a line of English, then back to a line of Greek, 
and so on.

you can just use any graphics for cells. for example QML can produce 
boxes with rounded corners and shadows.

a quick scan here ... I do not see anything for taking a .pdf and 
converting it to something like an image or some markup.  Does anyone 
know of something that converts a .pdf to generic postscript (like 
for GSView) or to convert to native REBOL format?  Thanks.

so I can load a .pdf and make a high res bitmap?

found http://www.pstoedit.net/pstoeditwhich can do vector graphics...maybe 
this will help...and some point would be cool to do these in REBOL.

PDFCreator

 


Overview: PDFCreator is an application for converting documents into 
Portable Document Format (PDF) format on Microsoft Windows operating 
system. Once installed, it allows the user to select PDFCreator as 
their printer, allowing almost any application to print to PDF, PNG, 
JPEG, BMP, PCX, TIFF and EPS format.


Besides being installed as a printer driver, PDFCreator can be associated 
with .ps files to manually convert Postscript to PDF format.

Isn't that one of the formats for Acrobat Forms ? There should be 
several types, like xfdf and the like .... but I'm not 100% sure.

Yes ... it is.  But documentation seems lacking, and it appears to 
be deprecated by Adobe.

I didn't notice much different in test.pdf. Probably small differences 
there. I keep looking at that circle and wondering if the centre 
can be positioned so that there's as much text on the first row as 
the final row.

You can also 
display" graphics:"

and after that, there is a box. is this correct?

very nice, by the way :-)

you could use edgar's image-magic examples and use image magic if 
pro licence and image magic is found... its going to be Extremely 
fast.

(embed jpg file saved from rebol and converted to jpeg with image-magic)

(and compress/TAR)

And yes, Rebol's compress is some older version of zlib compression 
- I use Rebol's compress function to create compressed SWF files, 
but in some cases Rebol is not able to decompress zlib binaries (so 
I use the dll)

I'm embedding JPGs into SWF files without problem, there is not required 
any special operation on the JPG's data to embedd. With the other 
formats I have to count pallete and use Rebol's compress (zlib) to 
embedd such an image (gif or png). It's not so fast, but it does 
what I need (and I don't mind if it takes a second more time to compile)

Is the PDF format so different? SWF and PDF are now in the same stable 
= Adobe

classic example: you are doing a definition list with a table, so 
you have a column with words and a column with the description.

| 'image (
                push new
                gfx: none

                insert tail new/contents new: make default-space []

            ) opt [opt 'at [copy val1 2 number! | set val1 pair!] (if pair? val1 
            [val1: reduce [val1/x val1/y]] new/translate: val1)] ; <-- now translation 
            is optional, and can be a pair too

            opt [opt 'size [copy val1 2 number! | set val1 pair!] (if pair? val1 
            [val1: reduce [val1/x val1/y]] new/scale: val1)] ; <-- now scale 
            is optional, and can be a pair too
            any [
                'rotated set val1 number! (new/rotate: val1)

              | 'skew [copy val1 2 number! | set val1 pair!] (if pair? val1 [val1: 
              reduce [val1/x val1/y]] new/skew: val1) ; <-- now accepts a pair
            ]  set val1 [image! | file! | word!] (
                if word? val1 [val1: get val1]
                if file? val1 [val1: load val1]

                ;if none? new/translate [new/translate: [0 0]] ; <- default position 
                (could set this to "current layout position")

                if none? new/scale [new/scale: reduce [val1/size/x val1/size/y]] 
                ; <- default size

                insert insert tail used-images val2: join "Img" length? used-images 
                val1
                gfx-emit [to-refinement val2 'Do]
                new: pop gfx: none
            )

image logo.gif would be at position 0 0 and 1 mm high, 1 mm wide 
(unless there's another transformation involved)

the reason i don't accept pairs is consistency; since values are 
decimal, and pair is integer only, i don't allow them to avoid confusion 
and complicating the rules even more (in v2 this would be even more 
complicated because of evaluation)

still, 0 0 does not seem a reasonable default for the position to 
me, unless you want the image to cover the whole page. anyway, "You 
could, however, easily add a small helper rule to accept 2 numbers 
or a pair": it's not so in v2 (because of evaluation), and I don't 
intend to do anything except necessary bug fixes for v1 :)

there's also to say, that the layout-pdf dialect is still meant to 
be rather low level. a human would write in QML or makedoc or some 
high level dialect, not layout-pdf; thus the defaults for image would 
be useless (even if a human was to write it, they'd only cover some 
10-20% of the cases, since not all images have the same dpi, and 
99% of the time you don't want the image at the bottom left corner 
of the page).

i was surprised nobody was shouting for Draw/AGG ! This clearly opens 
the door to many possibilities. Cyphre, could you pls give us a brief 
update of where the project is going and your opinions on the different 
possibilities ?

(please note I'm working on agg project as a volunteer and I'm not 
RT member or speaker so I cannot tell you anything more..you have 
to ask Carl or anyone from RT)

Use any experimental code at your own risk as this code and syntax 
is related to View ALPHA versions and is subject to cange in future 
versions.

view layout [image img]   and I get a left top 1 pixel border. Is 
this a bug ?

speed & ease of use are very important. Perhaps splitting interface 
into a low level speed way, and the high level easy way would be 
the wisest decision. Matrix is cool, but its not obvious to use to 
those that have yet worked on that level.

yes,  AGG will support 2D affine transformation matrices. So you 
can apply translation, rotation, scaling and inversion on  the actual 
matrix.

You will be able to use also matrix stack and PUSH/POP different 
statest of matrix. This will allow nested(hierarchical)  transformations.

so how about matrix multiplication and transpose -- non-graphics 
specialized maths

I want to thank Cyphre for all his test scripts in REBOL/View/tests/. 
Very a good good source of inspiration  and a perfect show room for 
the AGG capabilities ...

It is in early state of developement..the source has actually about 
7,5Kb and it is not optimized.

...move the slider and see.

...move the slider slowly and see.

DideC Why don't you take 5 minutes of your precious time to make 
us a treview and a dir-resquestor for RebGUI ?

and the best thing is... so short.... I can read it, memorise it 
and 'spit' it onto my vi without using copys

no I'm talking about treeview and dir-requestor for rebgui based 
on your work on the request-dir.r as you yet have a good experience 
and some inovent ideas over this topic  I think it's natural to push 
you to contribute but I you doesn't want to I will take some weeks 
soon to do it  but it could be more painfull for me and less inventiv 
that the work you can do DideC

no I'm talking about treeview and dir-requestor for rebgui based 
on your work on the request-dir.r as you yet have a good experience 
and some inovent ideas over this topic  I think it's natural to push 
you to contribute but I you doesn't want to push you. I will take 
some weeks soon to do it  but it could be more painfull for me and 
less inventiv that the work you can do DideC

some times Altme Hang and I can't send or receive message but altme 
stay connected ...

PekR yes 5K  script for SVG parsing to Draw/AGG then rendering engine 
AShley have done thanks to REBOL/View 1.3 the smallest and fastest 
SVG renderer I saw until now ;)

there seems to be some slightly difference between what Inkscape 
and SVGDemo renders.

eg. blender.svg

on Inkscape, there's an orange fill... on svg demo, it appears as 
a black fill.


I am using the latest /View...so, probably not a /View version problem.

I use inkscape to make new-file.svg and this one doesn't load at 
all

sidoposi doesn't launch in my os dependencies and linking problem 
regarding to GTK+ (no new version of it since one year) but inkScape 
witch use GTK+ too (but the newer version of GTK+) works pretty fine

so I think as inkscape is a very very good SVG  work bench we have 
to support this format instead of the SVG from Sidopodi (deprec and 
not working under win2k) to favorise the usage of rEBOL/View + svg 
scripts capable + inkscape

Cyphre sure but at last you can share with us you knowledge and experience 
on the topic and this is yet a precious thing ;)

THE GIMP is SVG CAPABLE TOO (all OS) so I use InkScape And when I 
ritch a limit with inkscape I make the complement with the gimp :)

Pekr: the SVG Demo is just a quick and dirty prototype. I'm just 
going to get it to the stage where it can display simple SVG icons 
(for RebGUI). If someone else wants to write an SVG viewer that is 
fully SVG 1.1 (with 1.2 around the corner) compatible then good luck 
... I'm *not* going to be doing that! ;)


yeksoon: see above comments. I'm tweaking the SVG Demo code on an 
SVG icon by icon basis. As long as it works for the icons I use (or 
intend to use) I'm happy - I don't guarantee the code will work with 
anything other than the specific SVG files I have tested it on.


Cyphre: SVG is such a "flexible" standard isn't it? :) One question; 
how did you map SVG "path d" commands (e.g. <path style=... d="M 
10 10 C 20 20 ... z") where there is no "z" command to close the 
"shape" (i.e. the AGG shape command closes by default).


shadwolf: Having our own SVG icons is a good idea as we don't have 
to worry about licence / distribution issues and we can tweak the 
generation to make it as AGG compatible as possible. To do that we 
need to settle on *one* tool so as we generate consistent SVG code, 
and we should generate SVG that uses a single unit of measure, preferably 
pixels, as it's a real pain trying to handle multiple units of measure 
within the same file. I'll continue this discussion in the RebGUI 
group.

want it be simploer and speeder to adapt our parse / rendering engine 
to a well know rock stable editor I propose inkScape. I yet provide 
two reference files made with inkScape.

Pekr no but draw//AGG  code for a sharpe and complicated rendering 
draw neither ? :)

take my file fraisier.jpg and draw it the same translating it to 
VID Draw AGG dialect you will see that it's  afull too (take left 
space i'm agree ...)

in all cases SVG in rEBOL/View is only a common base to allow lot 
of reuse of this format you have 20  draw/AGG guru around the world 
and 200 .000 SVG drawers that use WebBRowser Plugins and SVG EDITOR 
like photoshop, the gimp or InkScape ...

but i'm agree betwin SVG and AGG I would prefer an AGG draw maker 
tool ... And the good thing would be that this king of editor outputs 
SVG, DRAW/AGG and bitmap format as well with out any change or loos

I can understand that, but I think that that way eventually View 
will fade and die slowly, with dialects like Flash dialect, SVG dialect. 
You will teach ppl SVG, Flash, not Rebol and maybe you will find 
out, that you eventually don't need Rebol at all ...

I want proper plug-in, and View apps in browser. Look at Oldes - 
another app where rebol is used for ann app server only, not front-end 
http://box.lebeda.ws/~hmm/

as a deployment, the aproach of utilising SVG or links to whatever 
libraries is a good thing to have, I just hope it will not over-grow 
us and we will not find ourselves using other tools and environments 
using more than rebol ;-)

flash can do that too povray yafray and lot of script based application 
can do that too with planty a row of quality level

but whant can do rebol is among all of that... You can make vertorial 
grpahics animation and build it into a stand alone software what 
is flash without a webbrowsr with the flash plugin in it ???

REBOL  in my opinion and Draw AGG are more a joint betwin all existing 
so this ensure that people will still be using it

what is more easier and productiv (sorry but if you spent 3 weeks 
to draw the logo of your website in DrawAGG commands you will be 
fired and that's all) Making a description of your image in pure 
draw dialect ? Making it in SVG using a SVG Drawer editor then integer 
it to a VID renderer to have the snapshot ?  And then if your boss 
or client found that the produced graphic doesn't complity to his 
thought how difficult would it be to modify it in AGG code (pure 
texte no graphical editor) in SVG (there you have an editor and you 
can retake the file and then modify it very easyly ) or in bitmap 
once produced it's very hard to modify (a part if you save it into 
an intermediate format ? )

SVG  is a step In my mind to exploite AGG ready code we have no tools 
and we have too less gurus to make a relevent tool to improve production 
...

that is all fine. I just tried point out, how it could end-up. You 
may end-up using rebol less and less, as you start with SVG, you 
will use Flash, html, java-script, etc. :-)

our goal is SVG and rebol.  Saying hey guys look how easy is to integer 
to a rebol VID based software SVG graphics of all kind to make your 
ui or enlight it if you need it  is benefic for rebol

if you say guys you hav a powerfull Sclar and Vectorial dialect in 
rebol but you have to take you text editor to compose you graphics 
those guys will trash out out the window ... You can expect a guy 
the use all along the day photoshop illustratior, Wave etc to open 
a text editor there is no way !!! Like to expect that a 3D modeler 
will let apart his grpahical environement and use a taxte editor 
to make his 3D scene and animation usin yafray or povRAY... Script 
3D renderer are far away from in realtime 3D workbench (with graphical 
UI) but what want a 3D worker ??? Take 3 weeks to write a scene then 
wait three weeks to have the rendering then make the constatation 
that the result is not exactly what he wants and restart for 2 weeks 
of work and 3 weeks of generation ? Or edit his scene into a graphical 
UI that allow him to moselise and renderise his work in a bench of 
seconds ?

for example blender ... you make your scene into the grpahical ui 
you pre render the scene or the animation will the built in renderer 
then if it's good you start a heavy quality rendering using yaffray 
and from that point you will have to wait somme days until having 
the result... But in all case you are sure that the result will feet 
to your needs ;)

I study 4 years coding , system and multimedia (sound grpahics 2D 
/ 3D) because I follow a game realiser formation ;)

like POV script and YAFRAY scripts :)

you need a renderer and that's here whrer we need REBOL  to set up 
animation to set up the global UI

20 years ago Wav and Midi format where the only ones now in day you 
have more than 10 sound encoding format ....  An alternative could 
be to traslate systematically the what ever encoded sound file to 
a WAV one and then play it but franckly do you thing people that 
are using a jukebox software (like winamp for example) will accept 
1) to wait 5 minutes for theire files to be translated then have 
a poor audio quality ???

people need standards and known thing if you say to them hey we have 
a very good sound sytem but you need to write a script to make your 
sound somme freaks will be happy, the majority of the people  will 
be very upset ...

Pekr imagine you compose you graphics with inkscape (SVG editor very 
complete and free) then you set your animation process with AGG and 
then you put it online in your site. People come along in you web 
site make the click on the link to you new file then rebol/view plugin 
launch and run you SVG graphics with you AGG animation. In front 
of that you have flash sure but flash is made by a specialised in 
the grpahic industry company and not by a generic company ;)

and flash is not stand alone ;)

CArl franckly I use all the day long Crimson Editor and it's suffisant 
... but sure an IDE that allow people to manage code / AGG graphics 
animation (a little bit like flash studio ) would be top ...

Graham: getting GUIs to work perfectly, when they include a lot of 
special features and scrolling, etc, takes too much time.

Use the internet purely to allow people to find your app, and once 
found, they should in theory never have to go back to the site.

Kaj, I think you just move your arms all about when you are talking, 
and wear a pin stripe suit.

more ideas, a pinky ring, fancy cigarettes, a silk hankerchief in 
your breast pocket, and scowl a lot.  (if you don't look Italian, 
at least you might scare them off.)

mid day for me...


which means I get to see probably the first presentation and miss 
the rest as I tend to family matters

will pizza party have live stream too? I would order my own pizza 
from local pizzeria, plus some beer and I would be "there" with folks 
:-)

Well, I would hazard a guess and suggest that it will not be at the 
conference room!

I've tested skype conferencing a bit and found it not to be working 
particularly well. usually one of us loose the connection when we 
are 3 attempting to connect

Guess all the pizza is gone now .. and no updates from any of the 
conference attendees :(

A train was lost, and Gabriele and Mario rent another Van to move 
people to Hotel

I  am the wedding in a marriage saturday, and tomorrow  i will go 
to the conference only in the afternoon.

DevCon started with a very good spirit (and a very little amount 
of Beer .-)

About video streaming, Gabriele told me that it is not sure it will 
work in real time, but surely conference wil be registered and put 
online at some point.

spain doesn't have many sites, and rebol is shown as a micelaneus 
lenguage anyway this are just traductions of some rebol articles

just over an hour and still no video feed ... at http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/live.html

oh, no live stream planned? We should be told earlier, I called to 
my work and took vacation for today to hear keynote speach ...

hmm, 9:07 here .... I thought that at least someone from DevCon could 
join here and tell something about the live stream - if it is gonna 
work or not ...

Cyphre suggested there will be some nice announcements, but professionally 
refused to give me any hints. So I asked Carl and he told me they 
will announce some new developments, but could not say more few weeks 
ago ...

Brock - who would not like the BEER, right? :-) I like lot of beers 
:-) .... and whisky too :-)

that is worse than I thought, really. WebSite suggested everything 
will be professionally prepared, maybe it is, but is it really a 
problem to at least have one persone here on notebook and provide 
us with some hints of what is Carl talking about?

Unfortunately it could simply be that Gabriele had way too much to 
do in organizing the event and working on last minute changes to 
LNS for his presentation.

I recall last year it was Jaime and Gabriele that setup all the video 
equipment and the feed... maybe just not enough time.

heh, now I remembered something - some 5 years ago, when I was put 
in the charge for e-business team, we met with one partner from Germany 
and I asked them, if CZ, as a post-communistic country, has really 
weak internet connectivity and internet presence, especially in regards 
to companies. Two guys looked one at each other, started laughing 
and told us "haha, you've never been in Italy, right?" :-) Nothing 
against Italy, really, it just came to my mind right now :-)

I expect Reichart will show up with blazing fast fingers and a laptop 
at some point