AltME groups: search

(I've tested it on Android 2.3 (GINGERBREAD) phone and it works well.)

BTW It would be interesting to see how R3 performs on multiple devices. 
The easier way is just open the R3 console and execute: SPEED?

So, along with files and network support, at least support for 'ask 
for interactive input, would make this fully useful.

As said, files and GUI will be next.

Robert and Cyphre : As already stated under the Android group I have 
succeessfully tested the new console based R3 for Android under my 
Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1 tablet - running Android 3.2. works well 
- thanks again a lot for this achievement - I wil shortly follow 
with some donation - simply waiting for my next salary deposit ...

Graham, it should work on anything that has at least Android 2.2 
and an arm cpu. Moreover the APK contains additional build  of the 
R3 interpreter for arm cpus that have hardware floating point operations. 
I haven't made any benchamrks so I don't know if this is really performance 
advantage (in case of Rebol code) for Devices with such better and 
newer hardware.

I'm proud to say I have the second fastest Android phone tested so 
far. ;-)  I am SO excited for the future, especially for the Android 
network and file access and the graphics port.  Cyphre, how do we 
make donations again?

Bo, I upped my matching donation and additional $500 today.  Cyphre's 
doing fantastic work on Android.  Please help them stay funded, and 
I'll match donations.

and additional -> an additional

Yes, Andreas, very nice looking site. And thanks too to Saphirion 
for the build farm.

well, some build details might be nice - for example under Windows 
which toolchain was used - these details might be important if/when 
people start comparing performance among builds gotten here and elsewhere

and maybe a link to how to use the symbols with process explorer 
- this would allow relatively non-technical people report readable 
stack traces on a hang, for example

well, with the basic build farm in place and the website launched, 
i'll maybe get to some more build process revisions (including debug 
builds) soon.

Thanks, to Andreas and the Saphirion team!

Thanks Andreas, Cyphre, Robert and all the others actively implied 
in R3 dev, the ongoing progress and all the tools you shared and 
have committed online. The R3Droid chat works well under my Android 
3.2 (Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1). and the chat also runs fine under 
my Win7 Toshiba -  from the binaries set online at http://www.rebolsource.net

Kaj, where exactly is the window32 binary in http://archives.esperconsultancy.nl/Red-test/dir?ci=tip
 ?


Every click on a .exe takes me to more and more html pages.  Most 
confusing.

Sore the core builds are on rebolsource.net and the gui builds are 
on development.saphiron ....

Need to clean up and properly re-integrate a few bits.

Graham, do you see the fourth line on for example this page?

http://archives.esperconsultancy.nl/Red-test/artifact/0220fff5fad7661ca4108fc820cd09c1a6078e7d

It says "download" and "Hex". 
(had the same experience as you)

Looking for a direct link that I can give someone to download the 
latest red and red/system windows binaries

Yes, but that's a 6502 emulator ... not really what I want!  And 
the other thing was called "empty.exe" which doesn't seem to do anything

Looking for a direct link that I can give someone to download the 
latest red and red/system windows binaries

People, these are all specific versions of an executable, identified 
by its hash value. One update and its not the latest anymore, so 
I never link to specific versions

Kaj: I'm looking at your %console-pro.red script and it's really 
enjoyable for me to see all the pieces of Red programming stack put 
together and working well, at this point of the project. Kudos for 
having add script file loading to the console! :-)

Yeah, it's brilliant, the way Red blurs the lines between high level 
and low level programming, and compiling and interpreting, bringing 
them much closer together

Hi Ladislav, I have tried to make a random function in Red (Red/System) 
I saw your name in theR3 source too. That is Knuth's algorithm adapted 
for R3 and adaption to REBI64 type so you made 62 digits possible.

But my problem with Red/System is amongst others no array, so you 
would keep administration using pointers, but than comes the question 
where to keep it? What starting address to use. And so on :)

14.1 is just an #import example. ALLOCATE is built in, and it might 
as well not use C code

It's not described in the documentation, but there are many examples 
in the Red code and my bindings

The download script sounds great Kaj. May need to look at Fossil 
again. 


What I want is a REBOL wrapper that handles everything for me, let's 
me share and sync simply, and hides whether it's svn, git, fossil, 
etc.

Have to think on that a bit, and find some spare time somewhere. 
:-)

Is this the expected behavior ?

>> do %download.r
Script: "Download or update all Red(/System) extensions" (none)
Target test
Opening Red-test.fossil failed
Target common
Opening Red-common.fossil failed
..
..
And then there are many empty directories.

Just read through Nick's "Business Programming" piece.  Outstanding 
work!  Clear and complete.

I have only two thoughts that might be helpful:


The initial case for REBOL as a non-programmers development tool 
could use some visuals and diagrams.  


This initial message is perhaps the most important part of the piece 
in my view and might be developed into a standalone article to be 
spread around.

And it still relies on R2 combined with VID. That is logical though 
R3 and Red are the new preferred platforms for future development?

And, I am TERRIBLE  with visuals.

me neither -- I'm seeing the Portal does not exist page; and a slightly 
odd message that it may take time for DNS changes to propagate.

Ok, so wait a day and see if you like it

EPS and PNG format for whatever you need.

Yes, look here http://rebol.informe.com/portal.htmland here  http://rebol2.blogspot.com

and also this http://www.maxvessi.net/rebsite/wr/

yes, I do not know why Carl wrote that and was unpleasantly surprised 
when he did

@Giuseppe,: No, wiki software is mediawiki, to have a good support 
 multilanguage you have to install a mediawiki for every language. 
I just adopted http://www.informe.comfree solution ready to use; 
and I haven't many option as superuser. However creating and importing 
pages is easy. If you have already a wiki, export pages in a XML 
file, and I'll import the pages.

If I wanted to run Red on my Windows-based computer, what would be 
the process to do it?  Do I download the Red sources from Github 
and compile it on my computer?  If so, are there instructions on 
how to do it with a free compiler?

A free compiler? Red and Red/System are the free compilers

The example programs are also in there, compiled and ready to run. 
For the console-pro, you need the libraries in the RedSystem folder

I'll revert to doing that in the future, but it seemed a major milestone 
and people seem to like it, so I made an exception

And a special Ann-Reply-Red too.

sorry to say, but

this is just one more of  the "too many sites" as MaxV calls them.

it seems, that too many rebol user think they should do their own 
and can do it better.

this may be, but I think the average Rebol user is just to much individualist 
to join

why don't we just follow Saphirion guys? They concentrate very fine 
rebollers, it is just that as a business entity, they implement, 
what they need most. But - everybody can influence it via donations 
imo, so I did, sent few dollars to R3 droid port, and R3 GUI on droid.

Well, and if no leadership for some fork comes up - here comes the 
Red ;-)

Rebol 3 Bazaar is Saphirion Rebol 3, at the moment. Saphirion wanted 
to go on GitHub, but htey ahve not time to do it. Now everybody can 
contribute and speed up Rebol 3 devolpment.

I pushed Facebook Rebol group  from 100 to 263 users now, but people 
is loosing interest in Rebol, I write the Rebol blog quite every 
day; and I'll dedicate my time also to Rebol Bazaar. I don't know 
why Rebol software is orphan and I don't care. I'll try to rise again 
it in the Olympus of best software (since nobody else do it), if 
you are with me you are welcome. I have no enemies, just friends.

MaxV: you might have missed the announce, but Red has an interpreter 
and a console since new year.

Max you have to understand that most users already use Altme, and 
Stack overflow these days.   rebol.org and Github are there for source 
sharing.


R3 is not dying, its not Carl's job of moving it forward.  R3 is 
now on Android, for example, this wasn't available just a month ago.

In my humble opinion there is an immense wall between users and developers, 
that is not the open source way. Altme is inaccessible to most user, 
nobody know it and the procedure to register is hidden somewhere 
and too complicated; here we have no more than 50 readers. Rebol.com 
site seems a dead site. Curecode seems a secret society (it's impossible 
to reach if don't know the correct link, who is  working on it?). 
 Stack overflow is the only way at the moment users have to discover 
somenthing about Rebol, but it's not the appropriate site. We cold 
multiply 1000 times users with a good support.  Rebol must be more 
partecipative, but I don't see around anything about it.  Everytime 
I write a post about Rebol, I feel like an archaeologist with a dead 
language. Searching information about Rebol is a huge quest.
What did you do for Rebol? What can you do now for Rebol?

Do you want to build an open working infrastructure or you want remain 
sat on your chair looking Rebol going in ruin?

We have finally Rebol and Rebol VID source working, now we have to 
attract developers from all around the world.

I''m not starting a new Rebol, just making attractive for normal 
people, the bones and muscles of every good open source project.

Well to me it looks like there is just way too much happening to 
follow it all. Then one github repository for R3 is enough unless 
you really need another one to test and fool around with completely. 
The source being on Github is nice because I now have a copy, but 
it hinders me to contribute because I do not have the time nor the 
will to find out how to contribute changes, and when I tried I found 
it puzzling enough, so I decided it is too much trouble for now and 
to only look at the sources and not to contribute. (This goes for 
the Red github situation as well).

No need. We've already been dealing with this issue on SO chat, and 
in the other communication venues where the relevant developers are, 
for the last week, and we already have a plan. Like I said, we're 
already on it.

While I'm against blind copying, I think MaxV is simply trying to 
build some momentum. He's been very active, and I appreciate all 
his past efforts. If we open a dialog, we'll either come together 
or disagree in a friendly manner. :-) As much as I believe in talking 
first, sometimes that stalls efforts as well. Now at least we have 
something  to look at and use for further discussion.


And while I don't like having too many channels, and use only a few 
consistently, his new portal looks nice and incorporates a lot of 
functionality already.

Pekr, I suggested R2 because there is an enormous pile of useful 
code, and productive applications, that will likely never get ported 
to R3.  R3 will be great for developing new apps, but it's a darn 
shame to throw away all the work that's come before.

MaxV, I also agree that your involvement has been positive, and I 
always enjoy reading your posts :)  I also agree that it's great 
to offer more open channels of communication, but I think Andreas 
is 100% correct - links are preferrable to copied content.  Setting 
up a portal could certainly be helpful for anyone who prefers using 
that interface, but pointing to original content is critical.  The 
more sites that pop up and point to other important sources, the 
more easily people will be able to find what they need, no matter 
how they find their way into the community.  Helping to organize 
and guide people to the right places is helpful, but copying has 
all the problems Andreas pointed out.

This community seems to need strong leadership and techical support 
by an established entity which replaces Carl.  Saphirion and Doc 
both appear to be in potentially good positions to achieve that role. 
 They're capable and willing to provide new REBOL tools to the community. 
 Perhaps they'll be able to fund the development of those tools with 
commercial work they expect to see down the road, but I have no idea 
how strong their business models are.  Donations are helpful, but 
somehow supporting a business model that encourages leadership efforts, 
should be an important goal for this community.  It seems necessary 
that REBOL achieve some sort of real foot hold - a clear reason for 
use - in industry, education, etc.  For my own purposes, I'd like 
to implement the "business programming for non-programmers" idea 
as a course at business schools (not CS departments).  To me, that's 
REBOL's most relevant potential mainstream use.  How else could the 
REBOL ecosystem potentially grow in a way that encourages others 
to become involved in supporting REBOL, and in ways that financially 
sustain new leadership?  I'd love to see that topic discussed in 
more detail.  I don't think community growth will happen without 
a business plan that addresses the problem.

Yup. Except for the "business plan" part. There will be community 
participants who have business plans, but we need to support business 
competition between community members. As a community though, we 
need a development plan for Rebol and also for the community, but 
not necessarily a business plan since the community is not itself 
a business.

As an observer of open source projects since there were open scource 
projects, I see some challenges that no open source community that 
in my opinion have yet to be overcome, outside a limited vertical 
or academic market.

1.  Self-interest:  Each person views the code as their own opportunity 
to promote their own goals.  Since it costs nothing except time and 
effort and there is no remuneration, people develop forks that suit 
themselves.  When the need for them disappears, the support for them 
vanishes.  Result:  Whether a company owns the source or a company 
makes money with the source you are always dependent upon somebody 
who has more at stake than you do.  Right now that means Sapphirion.

2. Money:  Even with open source projects it takes money to push 
them forward.  If a company can make money they will pay for it themselves. 
 if somebody else needs the port or feature, they donate if there 
are enough people interested. So you either pay a company or pay 
into a project, either way you pay.

3. Leadership:  Usually a company ends up taking leadership because 
the original leaders begin to tire of the constant promotion and 
hard work.

I haven't seen a community able to sustain an open source effort 
for very long before it 1) forks into dozens of splinters 2) Loses 
or lacks leadership (which includes people willing to follow). 3) 
or is taken up by a company and exploited for its own purposes.

The solution to this would a very radical idea, one that isn't easy 
for a group of people to do.  Think of others as more important than 
themselves.  In this case I believe that R3 could become a movement 
against technology squeezing people into its own mold.  It could 
become technology that makes us smarter and better, rather than less 
adequate and worse.  It could become an enabling technology, but 
only if its people are devoted to enabling other people.

Did they do away with self-interest and money?

While I believe that a man should be paid a fair wage for his mental 
or physical efforts, I disagree with coming up with exotic ways to 
extract money from others.  And the only reason that a wage needs 
to be paid at all is that living is currently not free for most people.

There is a difference between self-interest and selfishness.

It is on the same fine line between altruisme and stupidity.

Arnold agreed.  I'm suggesting that a group can be otherminded and 
in the process protect and promote the interests of the individuals 
in it.  It requires a clear vision that transcends the group and 
its members, a strong leader who can articulate that vision, and 
individuals who can consider the needs of others as more important 
than themselves.  It worked on the soccer field with my teams, it 
worked a some large companies and it works in small businesses that 
I am aware of around the United States.

Trust is a huge factor, in the vision, in the leadership and in the 
other members of the group.

the best structure is when bosses are told to empower employes (at 
all levels of management) and resonsabilities are properly attributed 
and taken.

Maxim. This + alot. But it is more than empowerment, it's other-mindedness 
with empowerment.  You can empower nacisistic people and get dysfunction.

The boss I ever had had a very healthy philosophy... when I'm doing 
nothing and everything is happening, I'm doing my job.  his philosophy 
was simple.  hire competent people, give them all the rope anyone 
needs to hang themself.  but make sure the noose is strong.

a lot of bad human traits only flourish when they are cultivated 
in poor conditions.   when everyone is happy, feels like he's useful 
and appreciated... most unhealthy habits just leave because they 
have no place to root.  when everyone is happy, the rotten apple 
often, just leaves or gets told to change by everyone.

Kaj: I just downloaded the Win version of your GTK-Browser.exe app 
and the dozen of DLLs  required to run it and then it runs. But when 
I click on the Go button, nothing goes on. How is it supposed to 
react exactly ? The Quit button runs OK and the app is left.

Fossil standardises on UTF-8 and standard line endings in text files. 
I suppose I should not link to single files anymore. From a folder 
in Fossil's web UI, you can at least view those files

I've tested that the GTK-browser and most other example programs 
work on Windows XP and WINE. So far, the problem seems to be limited 
to Windows 7

MaxV happy to see you're able to produce those builds.  its an inspiration 
for others to continue to submit and keeps the momentum going :-)

(And outdated as well.)

I have seen that, but what I was asking about is the actual source 
tree that Saphirion is using. I got the impression from Robert, some 
time ago, that it was somehow being 'cleaned up' and would be made 
public in some way.

Thank you Robert and Cyphre... Good news indeed.

Some more Android port info. Since some people around were asking 
if it will be possible to 'encap' scripts with the Android R3 I've 
spent some time researching/prototyping in this area and I think 
I can now answer this question positively. It surely will be possible 
to make "encapper" for R3 on Android and my current prototype results 
show that we'll be able to do it without the need to install any 
SDK or other bloated instalations. It will be just one good-old "encapper 
exe" that will do the job for you.

Kaj, I deleted all files and subvols created by fossil and run download.r 
again.

The probem is not only with executable files, but with all files 
simple as containing just "Hello". 
write %test.txt "Hello" has the same effect.

From Announce regarding Carl's brief reappearance merging code changes: 
 Yes, the natural division where people are good at something and 
bad at others is usually drawn between dealing with people and dealing 
with everything else.  Delegation is a people task, probably not 
one of his strongest areas.

He, Carl, is probably busy figuring out how these radio signals go 
from emitting as particle electrons into waves travelling into every 
direction and re-emerging as electrons in radioantennas, without 
referring to "and then the magic happens" kind of reasoning.
And the average hb is particularly excellent in procrastination.

I gathered that.  Wish Carl could either be or attract the kinds 
of people that can sell what he makes.  I'm sure what he's working 
on next will be just as mind blowing and advanced.

BTW: BrianH, I am both impressed with and appreciate your work.  
Did I ever meet you.  I've been out of the loop for a few years?

Unless you worked for Qtask in 2008 and met me at the company meeting 
in December, then no. The only other people in the community who 
have met me in person are my own recruits. I've talked to Carl and 
Bo on the phone though.

Right at the point when it became appropriate for me to go to devcons, 
they stopped holding them in USA and I stopped having the money to 
travel outside USA. So unless my financial situation changes, or 
someone sponsors me, or visits me, then noone will meet me

Robert and Cyphere - Thank you so much for the Android version!

BTW Carl restarted the "R3 chat" server so you can just type: "chat" 
in the Android console and leave message here.

Or should the community work on reverse engineering and building 
our own drop-in chat solution?

I'm past that now - R2 code exists, but we'll never get it.  Let's 
move on and make all new contributions permanent.

Yep, I looked at it briefly.  Definitely a cool addition to the sorts 
of "modern" things Doc and other have been looking at.

REBOL and Red needs any sort of "sparkle" possible to make people 
take a look.

Well, my greater point with it is its involvement in education. Your 
chat just now, with Scot and James, made me think some more about 
it.

Promoting Rebol to them, along with a chat/collaboration feature, 
just makes sense, both for them and for Rebol.

From what I have observed, and what Scot was saying, is that we need 
something that is already built but which allows educators to educate.