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The times are small, so they become less accurate, and the printing 
comes into play

It's a bit strange, because the inner FP code should be identical 
between C and Red/System now. But anyway, it's more than enough for 
now.

I just saw the first black GL window flashing open and close in a 
splitsecond, that's all

We could try and export symbols for all [callback]/[cdecl]/[stdcall] 
functions.

Kaj: It's comment {} not comment []. ... I tested your example using 
{} and it compiled okay.

To be more precise, there's a string stage and a block stage in the 
preprocessor. All the compiler directive are processed at the block 
stage. The string stage is just a front-end to handle R2-incompatible 
syntax, like the Red/System hex notation, and count source lines.

Kaj: do you know why __libc_csu_init and __libc_csu_fini are not 
defined in libc in Linux? How am I supposed to pass them to __libc_start_main 
if I can't access them?

Isn't the libc doing important initialization and clean-up in these 
two functions?

__libc_start_main by itself is not doing much work, just a few calls 
and some global var init (like __environ). When I disassemble a C 
binary, these two calls are doing a lot of work.

well, __libc_csu_init and __libc_csu_fini are functions that are 
linked by gcc into the generated executable.

__libc_csu_init calls _init which in turn calls two more functions: 
call_gmon_start and __do_global_ctors_aux

New commit pushed to `libc-init` branch, new simplified and more 
conforming way to init libc (at least I hope).

I need to add support for Syllable, I have the right doc from Kaj 
for that, so no problem.


For Darwin, I would need the right stack layout description on starting 
a new process, I haven't found yet a recent and official description 
for that, just a lost page in google's cache from 2009: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:4zQ0NwtOKdsJ:blogs.embarcadero.com/eboling/2009/10/13/5620+MacOSX+stack+layout+on+start&cd=4&hl=fr&ct=clnk&gl=fr

Okay, libc-init is now working fine for Linux and conforming to Gcc 
ABI. Once again, man has won over the machine, but I wonder how many 
neurons were killed both in my and Andreas brain during the battle...;-)

(So it's propapbly best to remove the "syntax" section in the float32! 
spec and add a note describing the above.)

(2/3 inline binding code and the rest is very plain OpenGL and, yuck, 
GLUT.)

Looks good and the code looks some much easier on the eye than C 
to me.

so what to add to be able to click on something and get a calback 
working?

But then, you asked for clicking, and I only gave you typing :)

I know. OK, maybe I need an advice. I was looking into some C code 
educatory example, which contained something like:

char multi[5][10];

decomposed to:

    multi[0] = {'0','1','2','3','4','5','6','7','8','9'}
    multi[1] = {'a','b','c','d','e','f','g','h','i','j'}
    multi[2] = {'A','B','C','D','E','F','G','H','I','J'}
    multi[3] = {'9','8','7','6','5','4','3','2','1','0'}
    multi[4] = {'J','I','H','G','F','E','D','C','B','A'}


which gets stored in a memory block of a "0123456789abcdefghijABCDEFGHIJ9876543210JIHGFEDCBA" 
value.


If I would be supposed (for any reason :-), to interface to such 
a construct, I would simply use a pointer in Red, and would be responsible 
to manually decompose/treat the value of arrays, not to break it 
for the C level code?

Yes. (And there's hardly a breakage you could incur.)

And, as you know, an array type and a pointer type are (for most 
things) interchangeable, a `char[50]` is the same as a `char*`, therefore 
a `char[5][10]` is also the same as a `char*`.

Andreas: No possibility to be multi[0] and multi[1] are not interleaved? 
I mean, couldn't be 2 different memory blocks instead of continues 
one? Normally it will char[50] but same for all compilers? all memory 
models? small hardwares etc.?

Endo: it's guaranteed to be a single, contiguous area of memory. 
So yes, that behaviour is the case for all compilers and all memory 
models and all hardware (if they claim compliance with the C standard).

Endo: thanks for avoiding me to repeat myself over and over. :-)

When I will write app in Red, it will compile to Red/System in the 
first pass, and then to the native code from R/S? So that it means, 
that you write Red in R/S? Hmm, if Carl would release R3 sources, 
it would not help you much, as you plan to write Red in R/S, not 
C?

A simple vector style of Red Riding Hood's hood, maybe with one twinkling 
eye peeking out, and the tag line "Don't be afraid". :-)

( Dorothy in Wizard of Oz and sorry they were ruby red slippers )

symbolism is that your wishes will be granted if you try hard enough, 
and the impossible is possible.  We don't need the wizard of oz to 
help us.

And if anyone finds red, it's a perfect fit ...

What about 

>>RED
talk dialects


the >> is a play on the target image used in REBOL where >> is both 
from a console,and also an arrow head?

Yes, Redlang is probably the best one, and yes, they are maybe too 
corporate. I am more for a serious stuff, than for a fun ...

Those were just tries. Any of the above logo is imo better than what 
Graham originally posted. But I am not satisified either. Here's 
my take, what needs to be considered for the logo to actually "work":


- you should define a brief - namely a description of qualities/characteristics 
of Red. What is Red, what sets it apart, what does it mean to you, 
what should it mean to ppl, what differentiates it from others, etc.


- type of logo - only letters? Letters plus pictogram? Shoul pictogram 
only decorate logo, or is part of the name? Pictograms are often 
related to the business, but I am not sure, if you are easily able 
to relate pictogram to "red", as it is a name of the color. Nor am 
I sure, if pictogram would express a programming language. What I 
would suggest, would be either - pictogram contains "R", which also 
works as a filetype icon. Or pictogram expresses some quality - e.g. 
>> (REBOL/Red prompt), [R] block as one of the main concepts (series)


- color scheme - not much options with something named Red, right? 
:-)


- usability - you should think about the color scheme, and logo in 
various forms - normal, inverse, black&white, icon, letterhead, business 
card, ppt presentation, etc. You can look for inspiration to how 
I aproached 2zone media logo with the agency - http://www.xidys.com/pekr/2zone_media_logotypes/

So I can see, we have merget fast-float and the other branch, nice 
:-)

I will present the same slides as last time, with just a few updates 
and enhancements.

Nenad is still here after the conference. We debugged SDL audio on 
Syllable. It works now, without libc-init workaround, and it wasn't 
the fault of the new libc-init code in Red

and the plan is? :-)

Sure, but if you want stuff used by many, you shouldn't be using 
REBOL, and certainly not Red

how big is actually enlightenment (the parts you need to use, to 
get a GUI and app done using it)?

Certainly no more a nonsense argument than that Enlightenment would 
be unacceptable compared to AGG, Cairo and Skia

Enlightenment is very modular. The top two libraries are a widget 
set and a desktop environment and window manager, that you can choose 
to include or not

Enlightenment is like Amiga coming to Linux, and also other platforms 
these days

and no digital camera :)

Yes, Server is non-graphical. At least, it only has DirectFB and 
SDL built in, and no desktop. Workstation is Server plus X11 from 
a GoboLinux layer and the ROX desktop from ZeroInstall

I finally succeeded in compiling the Enlightenment widget set and 
desktop

Yes, there is no Red code yet, and I will only write any if I get 
it to work on Syllable Desktop

There seems to be a problem with JIT compilers in new Windows 8 Metro 
apps, and other features deemed too advanced

I have tested 0MQ, GTK+ and SDL on both Windows and Linux, no regression.

I've tested almost all binding examples on Syllable and Linux

Could it be that when a function is applied to multiple argument 
expressions, f exp1 exp2, they are computed in reverse order?


I agree that it is not intuitive, but doing otherwise would make 
it more complicated to support external libs. It could be possible 
to preallocate the stack and fill it in reverse order, so that arguments 
are executed in right order for the user, but that wouldn't work 
for variadic functions (can't preallocate the stack before compiling 
all the arguments).


It would be nice to add a ticket in the tracker to keep this issue 
in mind.

As we do the compilation and code generation in one pass in current 
Red/System, we can't look ahead to determine the boundaries of each 
expression in a variadic block of arguments in advance, to be able 
to extract their datatype.

In the C version I already noticed that I had to put the computation 
in front of the reporting, but I hadn't expected this, and certainly 
not in a language that looks like REBOL

that's what Doc replied on his blog:


@Thomas: for the very first Red alpha, only memory management, basic 
datatypes and a few natives/actions. Ports and I/O will probably 
be added in following alpha versions, as PARSE. If we don't hit any 
walls, we should have it a few weeks, probably a month.

The current partilal support for float does not support casting between 
float and integer datatypes

Support for converting between integer! and float!/float32! has not 
been implemented yet. The only way to achieve it right now is to 
rely on an external lib (libc?) or implement your own conversion 
routine in Red/System.

round-ceiling and round-floor in math.reds do rounding to integer, 
but they still return a float value

Doc - we are watching your progress via the Twitter messages, and 
looking into Github :-)

The other way around is already used in my Fibonacci and Mandelbrot 
time processing:

On Linux, you could also avoid going through strings and use lrint(3)/lrintf(3).

I also have WebODF running on my WebKit browser and a local Cheyenne, 
so I effectively have a viewer for OpenOffice/LibreOffice ODF documents

We're at the Document Freedom Day now. I presented the GTK binding 
and the Evince and WebODF widgets

In this DocumentFreedomDay-2012-playlist you can also find the film 
of Kaj's presentation about Red bindings with WebODF, LibreOffice 
and PDF last week in the Royal Library in The Hague, the Netherlands.

Thanks. :-) I tried to make the text on screen as readable as possible, 
because it was small on the previous video. Of course, this one is 
in Dutch. Maybe we can combine English speech and big text in the 
next one :-)

I hope Doc is OK and working on RED like mad :-) Last commits are 
12, 16 days old :-)

I think he was tallking about  a similar  flexibility as REBOL in 
passing arguments to functions; the programmer can enforce strict 
typing or not.


It will be interesting to see if Red allows the programmer to define 
new types. Red/System does with alias!s for struct!s and enforces 
strict typing. But it doesn't allow the programmer to define other 
types.

Pekr: I am working on the Red compiler mostly these days and I need 
to push further than I thought first in order to more accurately 
define the runtime part. As I want to respect my roadmap, I want 
the runtime to be stable enough to release v0.3.0 with an alpha version 
of Red compiler. Be patient, it's coming. ;-)

There are both countless caves and hills here. ;-)

Where I can find the window and linux RED executable?

james - there is no Red yet, just Red/System. And yes, you can kind-of 
create Android apps. But - those are bare-bones linux ARM apps, which 
can run on an Android phone. I tried that on my HTC Sensation. Right 
now, there is no app-store support, nor the ability to link to Android 
API, which would require the JAVA bridge. You can find some info 
here - http://www.red-lang.org/2011/12/arm-support-released.html

GUI, nice would be a clean cross plattform ANSI C lib, handling the 
basic window & eventmanagement

and providing access via a simplified meta-api (VID-DSL). this way 
nearly all script languages could 
use this lib as a native GUI generator.

And it worked Pekr :) I did as well. I tried last month too but I 
coudn't because my bank required more info. So I did via paypal this 
time.

Pekr: I am finishing the generation of the intermediary representation 
for the output of Red compiler. I had to change it several times 
as it is uneasy to design properly without all the other pieces ready 
(another chicken and egg problem).


For example, to properly store literals (especially series literals), 
I need some kind of Redbin format, but designing it and implementing 
it now seems like a bit premature (as most types are not defined 
yet). So, I went for a dynamic construction model at run-time for 
now. I'll move literals to Redbin when it will be available.


For Redbin, I want it to be powerful enough to be able to serialize 
the whole state of a running Red program, but I don't know yet to 
what extent it is doable when running native code directly (needs 
some significant research work).


Also, I need to make a few changes to Red/System compiler to better 
integrate witht Red's one, I should finish those changes and release 
them this weekend.

Hmm, serialisation and persistence, sweet :-)

I am moving all my web site and web apps to a new server. Unfortunately, 
I have to change all the DNS entries too, so interruptions might 
occur during the next 24-48h on the following sites:

- cheyenne-server.org
- curecode.org
- static.red-lang.org
- softinnov.org

I've been busy with offline tasks these last days, so haven't coded 
much. I'm resuming coding since yesterday, I hope to be able to release 
a new version and push commits before the end of the week.

Hi, I managed to install Syllable OS 0.6.7 on my old-old laptop. 
http://www.arnoldvanhofwegen.com/gedeeld/syllable_1.jpgHad some 
trouble with the installation because I viewed some installation 
instructions and by doing so skipped the part where GrUB should be 
installed. Now I understood Syllable has native/built in REBOL3 support, 
but I am still looking for that.

0.6.7 has REBOL 3, a recent Boron and ORCA on board

Now with REBOL 3, Boron, and prepared for Red

Do you use a generater tool for the Welcome_XX.html files? The Dutch 
version contains a considerable amount of English paragraphs. And 
ugly 'k'-s and some typo's.

If so mail me that file and I will do some extra editing on it.

I can not copy any file by dragging and dropping also ctrl-c ctrl-v 
didn't work. Copying a file should be easy?

I think delete should not be in the right-click menu only if you 
push shift or alt maybe. And there should definitely be an option 
to select move or copy a file.

I will attach a real mouse to the laptop I am using because clicking 
and right and left mouse buttons on my trackpad with two buttons 
seems to work inconsistent. No left button even if left&right button 
are swapped.

R3/View only works on Windows and Amiga

OK now. I plugged in a real mouse. The scroll wheel doesn't work, 
but that wasnot promised. I can drag and drop files now. Also I could 
pull up the volume of both volume and CD controls and now I have 
sound sound.

It seems to me that a major obstacle to operating system adoption 
is the difficulty of partitioning a hard drive, and potentially losing 
all the data from the other operating system partition. Raspberry 
pi is a $35 ARM system with an SD card designed to teach people how 
to program. It's an embedded system, so syllable would shine because 
it is light weight. One of these systems is powerful enough to output 
1080p video and extremely small.

Kaj, not sure if it's of use to you, but I dug out the timings from 
the last time I built Qt (on a Linux host, 4 months ago):


$ ./configure -opensource -nomake examples -nomake demos -nomake 
docs -nomake translations
5 minutes

$ make -j2
34 minutes


That was on a moderate dual-core machine with 2GB ram and spinning 
disks. Not sure how much make could parallelise, but for a single-core 
machine roughly twice the build time will be a reasonable worst case 
estimation. I guess that otherwise the configure-to-build time ratio 
will still be roughly the same.

I'm starting to get the GUI build to work, and it takes a few hours 
here, but Syllable Desktop can't use the second core on this machine, 
and compiling is roughly half the speed as on Linux, anyway, so that's 
roughly consistent with your timing

That's good footprint, isn't it? Not following the discussion - I 
thought you are working on an Enlightenment, not Qt? But maybe I 
mix Syllable and RED efforts?

No, that's around 100 MB, I have now established, if you strip out 
all the documentation, examples and demos

No, we never wanted to depend on Qt. And I have it all built now, 
but the GUI doesn't work yet

I'm working on many things, currently Enlightenment, GTK+ and Qt. 
The infrastructure they need in Syllable to build and run is mostly 
shared, and some of the dependencies they use are shared

I have all of Enlightenment working except the widget set. I have 
DirectFB working and am currently building GTK and Qt on top of that. 
I have all of Qt built but nothing GUI works. I have all of GTK working 
except GTK itself, so no GUI there, either, but I'm still working 
on that

So I need very good reasons to start such an attempt, and the R3 
View engine has several red flags that we discussed before

what red flags? The licence is not set, and the author and owner 
of the code is Cyphre, not RT, so if it is licence related, we should 
talk to Cyphre imo ... but anyway - wrong group. It is just that 
we are binding to some heavy solutions as GTK, Enlightenment, instead 
of going probably the less hard route?

I know. But I also expect RED being kind of compatible to RED, syntax 
wise. And I think Robert would not mind, if someone tried to port 
R3 GUI to RED. As you can read on various places, ppl still want 
View, small toolkit, and some are even reluctant to join RED, if 
the clarification of GUI availability is not made ...

Even Cyphre doesn't want to use it anymore, for technical reasons

 - I never heard anything like that, and it even does not correspond 
 with my info, that in fact Cyphre would like to redo the View engine 
 completly ...

No, it was just his long term idea, to abstract the engine, so that 
it can use various backends - AGG, Cairo, etc, and provide platform 
acceleration, where available. Unfortunatelly, that was just an idea 
on his side, no real project. There is nothing wrong with View engine 
itself, apart from some bugs in core, which make it look unfinished. 
That would not happen with Red, as all sources and hence debugging 
is possible ...

It's a pretty integrated stack, but modularised into more than ten 
packages. The dependencies are pretty much the same as the basic 
dependencies for other toolkits such as GTK, and most of them are 
optional. Stuff such as FreeType and FontConfig:

Cyphre redoing the View engine is the same as not wanting to use 
the current one anymore, isn't it?

 - Well, I actually use the current one with R3 almost everyday ;-) 
  And to make things clear I won't be redoing it...my plan is to update 
 it to 'next generation'  also add more features and improve some 
 parts of the current base etc.