World: r4wp
[#Red] Red language group
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Kaj 6-Mar-2013 [5819] | A timing issue would explain how it could be a soft bug, that actually works in the WINE Windows implementation |
DocKimbel 6-Mar-2013 [5820] | I confirm Paul's findings, if I drag'n drop %sample.wav on %play-sdl-wav.exe, I can hear the music on Win7. |
Kaj 6-Mar-2013 [5821] | Nice, we're making progress. So still not direct from the command line? |
DocKimbel 6-Mar-2013 [5822] | No sound output, but the wav seems to be played til the end. |
Endo 6-Mar-2013 [5823] | I made a Windows application to easily compile .red / .reds files. You can download it from http://www.moldibi.com/download/RedCompiler.zip See the help file. |
Kaj 6-Mar-2013 [5824] | Yes, even though drag and drop should be the same as starting with a command line parameter |
Endo 6-Mar-2013 [5825] | It is not a standalone compiler, just a wrapper, so it needs to be in the master folder to run. But it makes a bit easier testing red/reds scripts. |
Kaj 6-Mar-2013 [5826] | Nice |
BrianH 6-Mar-2013 [5827] | I didn't test it, but not all differences between Red and R3 are bugs - where they are in comparable datatypes, they are. Syntax compatibility in the the compatible datatypes is a necessary feature. If they aren't compatible, it's a bug. The only question is whether it's a Red bug or a R3 bug. It could be either. |
Kaj 6-Mar-2013 [5828] | Well. if they're not syntax compatible, they're not compatible datatypes :-) |
BrianH 6-Mar-2013 [5829x3] | If they have the same name and server the same role, they are. |
For non-comparable datatypes it's not a bug, of course. And semantic differences may not be bugs either. | |
For instance, if Red doesn't have a money! type then not supporting the syntax of a money! type is not a bug. | |
Kaj 6-Mar-2013 [5832] | Nope. 10h is a Red syntax for an integer! but REBOL considers it invalid |
BrianH 6-Mar-2013 [5833x2] | Maybe that's a bug in Rebol. |
Maybe they're both wrong. | |
Kaj 6-Mar-2013 [5835] | If you stretch the definition to conform to your argument, then yes, you can make anything fit |
BrianH 6-Mar-2013 [5836x2] | But syntax incompatibility for the same datatypes is a bug. The only question is which language needs to change to make it compatible. I am not going to constrain Red to match what R3 can do now when R3 can change too. They are related languages. Arbitrary incompatibilities that aren't related to the differences in semantic models are bugs. Of course this is all keeping in mind that LOAD is just a function, but that doesn't make arbitrary incompatibilities a good idea. They are in the same syntax family. If it's a good idea to do for Red, it's a good idea to do for R3 as well. And if it's not a good idea to do for R3, then it is likely also not a good idea to do for Red for the same reasons. And maybe there is a better idea for both. |
Semantic incompatibility is another issue. Those are more likely to be OK. | |
Kaj 6-Mar-2013 [5838] | Hex notation is not arbitrary |
BrianH 6-Mar-2013 [5839x2] | So the bug is in R3. |
It is likely that there will be whole datatypes that are appropriate in one and not the other, but I expect many of those to eventually cross-propagate in a lot of cases because their system models aren't really that different, just their implementation models. Certainly I would expect datatypes with literal non-constriction syntax to cross-propagate eventually, and those are the only ones where syntax compatibility would be something we would even consider to be an important factor. | |
Kaj 6-Mar-2013 [5841] | If you define anything Red does that R3 can't do as a bug, that's fine with me :-) |
BrianH 6-Mar-2013 [5842] | The main principle of the Rebol family way is data syntax compatibility. Everything above the data syntax is just a dialect. Even construction syntax is a dialect. |
Kaj 6-Mar-2013 [5843] | Tell that to Boron and World |
BrianH 6-Mar-2013 [5844] | Incompatibility is the whole point to Boron and World, and that is why they will eventually fail. I want to make Red and Rebol succeed. They have the best chance to succeed by cooperating. No merger necessary, just cooperation. |
Kaj 6-Mar-2013 [5845] | I don't think that can be said of World |
BrianH 6-Mar-2013 [5846x2] | If you define anything Red does that R3 can't do as a bug, that's fine with me :-) - only when the reason that Red does it is sound. I've noticed that sometimes it isn't (don't worry, it's rare). On those occasions, I'll report Red bugs :) |
I think that it can, but the reasons for that are not relevant here. If you like I'll discuss them with you privately. | |
Kaj 6-Mar-2013 [5848] | No need, I'd like to get on with my work |
BrianH 6-Mar-2013 [5849] | Cool. |
DocKimbel 6-Mar-2013 [5850x2] | BrianH: I agree that we should avoid arbitrary syntax incompatibilities. For achieving that, the best way is first to have a complete formal description of the target syntax that we all agree on, then only we'll be able to flag deviations from that model as bugs. IIRC Chris has started working on such formal description, how complete is it? |
Looks like we need to find some simple but efficient online collaboration tool to better keep track and organize all the common sub-tasks between R3 and Red that keep poping up these days. | |
BrianH 6-Mar-2013 [5852x3] | I have that bookmarked, but haven't yet looked it over thoroughly. I noticed that the last time I tried to determine R3 syntax the effort generated a lot of bug tickets. The same would likely happen once I get a chance to go over Red syntax, and they may end up being a lot of the same bugs. Some syntax issues are an inevitible result of being in the same syntactic family, and not realy arbitrary when you consider the balance of the entire syntax. |
For instance, there is at least one bug report for R3 related to increasing the number of delimiters that should be rejected because implementing it would drastically reduce the readability of code written in any Rebol family language. If Red implemented that proposal it would be a bad thing for Red as well for the same reasons. | |
And I was the one who filed the bug report :( | |
Rebolek 6-Mar-2013 [5855] | Boron may fail because people just don't seem to be interested in it and World already failed because it's closed soirce. |
BrianH 6-Mar-2013 [5856] | I don't think World failed, actually. I think it succeeded at what he needed it to succeed at. He just didn't need adoption by other people. |
Rebolek 6-Mar-2013 [5857] | As Geomol doesn't list World in used tools for his iOS projects I guess it failed. |
Kaj 6-Mar-2013 [5858] | Sounds like Brian means Boron |
AdrianS 6-Mar-2013 [5859] | Doc, the Brackets editor is using Trello for the online task tracking/collaboration. Looks pretty cool and doesn't cost. https://trello.com/board/brackets/4f90a6d98f77505d7940ce88 |
BrianH 6-Mar-2013 [5860] | World's value slot size is 256 bits, which only makes sense for big data, not for mobile platforms like iOS. Its semantic model is basically that of R3 (plus all of the changes that he had requested R3 make that were rejected), and that semantic model is not really compatible with the iOS App Store review process. So I'm not surprised to see him not use World for iOS - its target market is completely different. |
Rebolek 6-Mar-2013 [5861] | Kaj, are you sure? "He just didn't need adoption by other people." sounds like closed source nature of World, not Boron's GPL. |
BrianH 6-Mar-2013 [5862x2] | He released documentation, not the actual interpreter. He needed advice, not adoption. |
Boron is meant to be used by a lot of people, hence the copyleft license and actually being released. | |
Kaj 6-Mar-2013 [5864] | I often have no idea what's in Brian's head :-) |
Rebolek 6-Mar-2013 [5865] | I must confess that I have one very big and irrational problem with Boron. It has same name as one extremly stupid Czech heavy metal band. I just cannot work with it, even if it may be great language. |
BrianH 6-Mar-2013 [5866] | (I will file a bug report for Brian's head ;-) |
Rebolek 6-Mar-2013 [5867] | I met them on one festival where we were playing together and from that day I just can't stand Boron. |
Kaj 6-Mar-2013 [5868] | John needs World to become popular, because his business model is to sell a book about it. Karl specifically didn't mean Thune to become popular, probably not even ORCA. Boron was meant for a wide audience again, but he does not depend on it, because he's simply developing it for his work |
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