World: r4wp

So - it might seem, that I contradict what Doc wants. I think I don't 
do so. He wants to be native on those above platform. And that makes 
sense. But - are those above platforms done in GTK? Enlightenment? 
Look at Microsfot - I just yesterday was watching their 5 hours of 
SharePoint plus Office 2013 presentation - most of their new stuff 
is becoming - HTML5. They are even scratching Silverlight for the 
typical desktop ...

My suggestion, then, is to make a list of target OSs, prioritize 
the value of a GUI on them, and propose the best GUI solution for 
each.

Would you be willing to set up a checklist for that Petr?

Pekr: you don't get the right picture. When I mention "native widgets", 
I am mainly referring to the ones provided by each OS, which is what 
most users expect to find in an app for their OS, and what most developers 
wants, is to provide a consistent experience for users. So, actually, 
such approach will be lighter then /View, because the OS provides 
you with everything you need. In the case of Linux, GTK is the main 
standard and it is built-in many distros, so that is the one we will 
probably use for Linux target and you don't need to provide it with 
your app.

Or even just a shared doc here.

I think the check list is done :-) I think that in 2-3 months, Doc 
wants to start by - Android :-) And maybe something in that direction 
is already slowly starting to happen :-)

Where is the checklist?

No checklist, just general wishlist ...

Doc, fine - then I'll never use Linux as a desktop - hate it, easy 
as that, so no REBOL/Red apps for me there  ... What I wonder even 
more is, if you would be really able to unify, even in the case of 
Linux - what about e.g. Ubunty, and their Unity? Will it work just 
with GTK? Will such app look native in Ubuntu? Just curious ...

GTK is the native GUI for Ubuntu. I've told you many times

How many of us would ever need to do a real native Linux app?


We are talking about a cross-platform GUI framework, that means: 
write once, run everywhere. Using native widgets from the OS is an 
option, using custom ones (with non-standard look'n feel like /View) 
is another option. So, you write a Red GUI app on whatever system 
you like and your Linux users will be able to run it.

Unless you want to boycot Linux users and prevent them from using 
your Red-based product because you don't like Linux? :-)

Yes, that's an old discussion. In case I want to be crossplaform, 
I only accept it with mobile OSes, which are very special. I want 
my View app, I want to look and behave it identical on all plaforms. 
Can't imagine how I would be using eg. this Altme on Linux, using 
GTK, then switching to Win7, having totally differnet look, feel, 
behaviour in details ...

Feel free to write a custom GUI in Red

Linux is dead since its beginning, as far as desktop goes anyway. 
It is here since mostly 1994? Where's the world domination? Look, 
I welcome alternatives, I grew up with them, I am just realistic. 
E.g. Haiku has some drive, so much energy of so many ppl spent, but 
hardly becoming a mainstream.

It's hard to imagine that the native UI interface would meet with 
criticism from any main stream developers - by definition, it's the 
_native UI.  Doing things that way just takes longer to port.  I 
honestly don't care which way it goes, as long as there's a usable 
GUI system with a _productive syntax_.

So, you want something like VID/View, that looks great, and works 
on mobile platforms. Is that correct Petr?

Kaj - I feel free to find some resources for someone to port View 
to Red, playing on your nerves, as it will quickly again becoming 
more popular :-)

Gregg - no, I want ALSO View/VID, which is being kind of dismissed 
here both by Doc and Kaj :-)

My nerves are fine. It's yours I'm converned about :-)

How is that different from what I said (and I think they agree that 
you can write it if you want)?

I tried to attract Cyphre, unfortunatelly he has new View like engine 
in mind, which would require some extensive resources to spend to 
get that. And I don't have such resources, so I am "a bit" nervous 
:-)

That is, if Doc creates your dream GUI system, what is it?

I should have asked the GUI question in private ;)

:-)

No problem, Petr will complain no matter what

Doc starts with a kind of dialect - some midd level. Kind of what 
Henrik called top-down, but with good thinking ahead. you mostly 
write VID-like dialect, which would get (not necessarily 100% automatically) 
compiled to target platforms. So on Android, it looks like andorid, 
etc., but also - for small embedded - either html5, or View ...

My understanding is that most people stick to one desktop OS, they 
are not switching OSes whole day (that is just a very small minority 
of computer users). Having close integration with OS can bring many 
advantages over a custom GUI like hardware acceleration or close 
integration with OS/desktop services. There are still cases where 
a custom cross-platform GUI could be good enough, so a View-like 
engine for Red is welcome. I just think that the default GUI option 
should be to provide an OS-integrated user experience.

Ah, I thought so, could count minutes before someone comes with "hardware 
acceleration claim". We havent ever utilised full speed of new View 
engine in R3, yet we want it even faster :-) But understood, some 
mobile devices might not have FPU or so ...

So on Android, it looks like andorid, etc., but also - for small 
embedded - either html5, or View ...

That sounds like what Doc is proposing.

I found it to be slow

Doc - I used some programming languages on Windows - Visual Objects, 
Delphi ... button here, button there, button with bitmap. Wait - 
CA-VO did not have such a class - almost impossible to obtain such 
a feature. Then I show few small demos of View2 from the desktops, 
and those big guys come like - huh, how is that so easily possible?

Petr, don't lose focus. The train is going in your direction. Just 
get out of the way. :-)

So - just please show me a bubbless demo written using GTK. Do you 
have a widted for that? And that's my point.

:-)

I want ALSO View/VID, which is being kind of dismissed here both 
by Doc and Kaj :-)

 Absolutly not, I'm just saying that I will build a native GUI solution 
 first, a View-like solution is not my priority but it is welcome. 
 If nobody makes a View-like engine, nor wraps R3/GUI engine, I will 
 consider making one myself when I will have more time.

I've already said that I will make one, but Petr keeps maintaining 
the reverse

Petr, do you see that we're all in very close agreement here?

We havent ever utilised full speed of new View engine in R3, yet 
we want it even faster :-)


What I just say is that you have it for free when using native widgets.

OK, I need to work 32 hours a day to contract Cyphre, to make it 
a bit higher priority :-)

Great. We'll all appreciate that. And you see, now, that we all agree?

Doc - I know - what I want is - free form GUI, not necessarily a 
native GUI, which is mostly good for forms like apps imo. Or just 
please show me particles.r 1.6KB demo rewritten to GTK :-)

That's no problem if I bind the canvas widget, but I'd rather do 
it in Enlightenment

Is this helping at all Doc? I'd like to say this has run its course 
right now, and we should let Doc focus, and others can comment later.

:-)

Gregg - I will see how Red evolves in regards to events etc., so 
that later on I can have someone look, how difficult would it be 
to port View from R3 to Red/System. AGG is just platform agnostic 
(I think), then there's a windowing system, maybe not so difficult, 
but Doc might have some other plans for events, etc.

Gregg - Doc is focused, don't worry. He is used to my folklore. I 
know where he might be heading (in a bigger picture, not details)

He might, but let's not dive into that right now. Do you see that 
we agree, and we know what you want in a GUI? And if you want us 
to remember it, you can put it in a file or checklist here. Please. 
:-)

I created a folder and blank file for you Petr: %Red/GUI/Petr's Wishlist.txt

Thanks Gregg.