World: r4wp

, while the POS-C is not ephemeral, continuing to exist no matter 
what

Maxim, unfortunately this does not help at all, because we have no 
built-in way to compute with those vectors.

exactly.  we don't have an index! type.

My note to Max's contribution:


- in REBOL, blocks of length 0 are not "impossible", that is, we 
have to use a nomenclature compatible with this fact

The issue is that index 0 is looking backwards... that doesn' map 
to any good reasoning.  In fact it creates many weird inconsitencies 
in the model, when you try to describe it.

 - it may not be a "weird inconsistency", but it is almost imposible 
 to describe to a newbie in a reasonable way

empty blocks are not impossible to describe.  but all functions will 
provide special cases to manage them (return another infinitely small 
block or none, or raise an error) because as such, they are vectorially 
equivalent to null.    an empty  block is just a starting place without 
any room to move.  when only looking forward, it is exactly the same 
as the tail (when you read my original post) and hence in actual 
code, tail [1 2 3] and  [ ]   are exactly the same, if only positive 
indices are being used.

Too many constraints.

REBOL allows you to look backwards, REBOL allows you to use negative 
indices.

As such R3's model is actually not only _not_ "weirdly inconsistent", 
but actually more consistent than R2's model, when having to use 
in-language properties to describe it.

Yes, Andreas, but I am not the one willing to explain to newbies 
"Why 0 'points backwards?"

I am still sure that once we have negative numbers, we cannot do 
without zero (to maintain compatibility with the continuity of the 
underlying series). Then, actually, the SKIP behaviour is the only 
one easy to describe and use as the base of the "nomenclature".

Ladislav... what about adding another helper function: last? pos-c 
== true :-)

Ladislav, I fully agree. I don't think that "0 points backwards" 
is particularly elegant either, but I'm willing to explain it ("0 
points to the element before 1") and find it much better than having 
to explain when and why you have to very careful with computing indices, 
or even debug (R2) code that was written unaware of this fact.

No problem, but that is also and "ephemeral characteristic" exactly 
like TAIL?

The only other realistic option I see, is to disallow negative indices-as-ordinals 
completely (but still keep the possibility to use negative indices-as-offsets, 
such as in SKIP or BrianH's proposed PICKZ/POKEZ).

(I meant that LAST? is as ephemeral as TAIL?, while HEAD? is not 
ephemeral at all)

Anyway.. reading this discussion, I'm feeling like deja vu... I would 
stay with REBOL way of indexing. Although I don't have any problem 
to switch into 0-based indexing in other languages. The problem is, 
that the other languages don't have functions like next, back, tail.. 
which enable series traversing, do they?

Keeping negative indices with R2's weird behaviour only for the convenience 
of being able to write "foo/-1" is not worth it, in my eyes.

Oldes: C does have pointer arithmetic, which is, in many ways, isomorphic 
to SKIP

Keeping R3's behaviour is certainly a possibility.

Oldes: next/back/tail/etc would work just as fine with indices-as-offsets 
("0-based").

Andreas: what do you propose to replace "foo/-1" if negative indexes 
are disallowed? "first skip foo -1"?

anyhow I always considered negative indices to be a bad idea.  I 
find SKIP and BACK convey much better meaning, because they are inherently 
directional (vectorial) by nature.  


IMHO  negative indices should have been implemented like in python, 
where they count from the tail, rather than "curren" position.   
they are MUCH more useful, they would be used daily by me (and most 
rebolers) in such a case.

I was thinking about high level languages. For pointers is 0-based 
indexing logical.

foo/-1    ==    skip tail foo -1

Maxim, that does not correspond to current R2/R3 behaviour. We are 
talking about indexing "backwards" from the current position.

(But I also prefer Python's behaviour :)

DocKimbel: yes, either `first skip foo -1`, or `pickz foo -1`, or 
`foo/-1st`.

I somehow incline to R2's behaviour just with error instead of none 
for 0's index

And no error for out-of-bounds indices?

To me, the description here http://www.rebol.com/docs/core23/rebolcore-6.html#section-1.1
is logical, but I'm not a scientist.

Andreas: what do you propose to replace "foo/-1" if negative indexes 
are disallowed? "first skip foo -1"? - In 1-based indexing without 
negative values it should be PICK-BACK FOO 2, in fact, which is awful

it can still change for R3... very little code uses negative indices. 
 


 its already incompatible with R2, so we might be better off finding 
 the proper incompatibility than trying to "wing it" in the name of 
 continuity.   same for Red, it is free to be better than its pre-decessors. 
    


python's  negative indices where a revelation when I used python. 
 It was one of the very few redeeming features I found it had.

I use pick ONLY in case where I don't want to get error if I'm out 
of bounds

Ladislav: I would still keep offset-based SKIP.

hm.. now I see, that even select and path notation is not returning 
error.. so I don't know where I came to this.

Yes, I just explained what should be used instead of PICK FOO -1

I'd rather add an offset-based PICKZ than a PICK-BACK :)

(when being consistent, that is)

Andreas, I understand, I was just showing the consistent usage of 
1-based indexing without zero

Could also be `pick skip foo -1 1`, but that is not less awful.

Could also be `pick skip foo -1 1`

 - yes, but that is not the direct equivalent of (inconsistent) PICK 
 FOO -1

Yes.

Of PICK-FORWARD 1 returns the current value, PICK-BACKWARD 1 should 
of course also return the current value.

If*

Exactly what I was trying to emphasize

From R3-alpha world:

Carl:	It is zero based for math computation reasons. If you think 
that is wrong, we should discuss it and correct it soon.	11-Oct-2007 
6:03:15 PM

Carl:	Rest of REBOL is one based for this reason: first = pick series 
1	11-Oct-2007 6:03:33 PM

Carl:	The solution we discussed, but have not yet implemented (but 
it is easy to do) is to add a PICKZ (or PICK0) function.	11-Oct-2007 
6:05:41 PM

BrianH	: Those math computation reasons are why I prefer zero based. 
I tend to use SKIP instead of AT for the same reason.	11-Oct-2007 
6:06:09 PM

BrianH	: Please add PICKZ and POKEZ - I liked them in rebcode.	11-Oct-2007 
6:06:46 PM

If PICK-FORWARD 1 returns the current value, PICK-BACKWARD 1 should 
of course also return the current value.
 - which, actually, leads to "overlaying", not to "gap-making".

(Carl in the post above was answering why vector in the initial R3 
version was 0-based. He changed it afterwords to 1-based but never 
created promised *z functions.)

Frankly, I am not overly enthusiastic about the PICKZ name, any other 
reasonable idea?