World: r3wp

(not that bad, I admit)

But, the second price is how to explain such property to beginners

On the other hand, we probably don't have to say to beginers that 
"there is no spoon" (ah, pardon, self), it suffices to say "self 
is protected".

The article

http://www.rebol.net/wiki/Exception_proposals

updated. Changes:

- LET function
- SELFLESS function
- readabilty improved

(the BIND-TO-NEW function was removed, which enhances source readability 
in my opinion)

Ladislav, those disadvantages applied to the self field. Of course 
there is other code that still has those disadvantages. That doesn't 
make R2's self field have them any less.

Agreed on the readability improvements of using the LET function. 
You didn't get the whole SELFLESS function.

And you might want to get into the habit of using CAUSE-ERROR, since 
it makes your code look simpler and hides the differences between 
R2 and R3 errors.

I just realized something: You don't need word references to have 
the full power of PARSE, you can use circular direct references instead. 
Of course you can't specify those structures in loadable source, 
you have to construct them dynamically, and you can't BIND them so 
you stiff can't use definitional scope for its operations. But it 
is at least in theory possible to match the patterns that finite 
nested rules can't match by using circular structures.

stiff -> still

Really awkward to do so though, and you can't just see the structure 
in source so it is harder for many people to understand.

Overall, the best and most efficient strategy for dealing with the 
problems of circular structures is to not use them, or to accept 
that they will have problems. Having *every* object have a circular 
reference in it was a bad idea because of that. Using word references 
instead of direct references is another way to deal with the problem 
though.

Word references - yes, that is fine

Added a REBOL-code almost-equivalent to the SELFLESS ticket, based 
on your trick, and a couple minor bug fixed. Rewrote LET to use the 
same trick. Strangely enough, the LET version has less overhead than 
the SELFLESS version of the same trick, especially in the error handling 
code. The LET function is now efficient enough to be acceptable as 
a mezzanine function, though not yet efficient enough to be used 
to implement low-level mezzanine functions.

You got the arguments to your error wrong :(

No big deal though.

We could really use a native LET or SELFLESS - either would do, actually, 
and could be used to implement the other.

Yes, "your error" - which one?

aha, yjou mean the implementation of SELFLESS

Yup. Compare the arguments to CAUSE-ERROR in the ticket version of 
SELFLESS.

Your second argument should be 'words instead of 'any-word.

Other than that and a couple tweaks to fix similarly minor bugs here 
and there, it could be used in the ticket as-is.

OK

I also noted in a comment that a native LET could be used to implement 
a mezzanine SELFLESS, just as easily as the other way around.

Since LET would be used directly more often than SELFLESS, native 
LET might be the better option.

That is what I think as well

Fully mezzanine LET is still too inefficient to implement USE, but 
the same technique could be used in USE if we went with definitional 
return.

However, this is still slower than APPLY closure in my tests.

Wait, you can't implement SELFLESS with native LET. The empty context 
would still not work.

Added the SELFLESS using LET code to the SELFLESS ticket.

Giving the 'self issue in objects another thought. It occurs to me, 
that we could be better off not having it at all, i.e. having all 
contexts seflless. An object method can refer to the object without 
using 'self anyway. E.g.:

o: make object! [this: does [bind? 'this]]
same? o o/this
== true

Or:

>> o: make object! [this: bind? 'this]
== make object! [
    this: make object! [...]
]

This would simplify the whole SELFLESS, SELFLESS?, LET, etc. issue 
as well

Aha, full circle. I seem to remember SELF was added by user request, 
and now it might be removed to simplify things. If I could remember 
why the user(s) wanted it...

When was it added?

In my opinion, it must have been before the BIND? function were available

Oh, long before that.

Maybe around 2001, on the mailing list.

IIRC there was a long discussion about SELFLESS functionality, it 
was imo backed mainly by BrianH, whereas some other members did not 
regard it being much important.

How about the LET function, Pekr, would you find such a function 
useful?

I haven't read those proposals yet ... might do so this evening - 
I am simply behind ...

LET would be useful to me.

I'm unclear on LETs value. Can someone provide a useful example?

Writing some, just a moment

Thanks

http://www.rebol.net/wiki/Exception_proposals#LET_2

Now it only depends whether you find those examples "useful". You 
can find other examples in the article, though.

(and they *are* useful)

Well, I think it would be clearer to see it applied in loops and 
using multiple values. As it is shown there, USE and DO FUNC are 
clearer to me. It may be very useful.

You find this example:


    x: 121 print ["result:" use 'x [x: system/contexts/user/x x: x + 
    1 x / 2 + x]]


clear? Even knowing, that it actually does not work if not in user 
context?