World: r3wp

The Win2k issue is serious...I didn't realize it was completely broken. 
We'll take a look at that. The only thing is that Carl is in France 
and I can't release w/o him, so it will probably have to wait untill 
he gets back in 3 weeks.

that's ok for me. I don't need it tomorrow, but it would be nice 
to develop my concepts for demoing in a few months time.

In the meantime, if you have any other crucial breaking bugs, please 
post them. (also, regarding stability: please try the plugin on a 
fresh, clean system first, because old plugin versions can sometimes 
mess things up).

Graham: "How can anyone plan anything ??"

Henrik: "I had something in mind... I've been waiting for almost 
two years to implement ..."
Pekr: "that is kind of general communication problem..."

JoshM: "Regarding the temporary hold on plugin development  -- you'll 
have to talk to him"


Those are  reasons  why I move towards Orca, and I now moving towards 
other languages, until Orca is mature, you can't bet your future 
on Rebol, because over and over again things stay the same with little 
glimpses of hope that comes from small announcements, but not real 
change.

How amazing it is that Rebol has lost ground an oportunities, and 
every other language is developing and making progress at an incredible 
pace.

jaimevargas, well I sure hope that Orca will deliver

because it _will_ _most_ _certainly_ deliver, won't it? :-)

I am not sure Orca will deliver, as Rebol lost momentum already, 
and unless Orca attracts new developers (which is imo unlikely), 
it is a tough problem. I wonder Kaj bets on Orca for Syllable.

Until there is a change in RT in rebol polices rebol is going to 
lose market and mind share, and it risk being completely isolated, 
like it happen to Apple before to OSX, or scheme before PLT, or Smalltalk 
before seaside, or Ruby before rails. We need a push for real.

Yeah, you know the cure - open source. The rest hoped for RT's plan 
to keep the kernel, but release the rest. I wonder, why plug-in, 
which is completly unrelated to Rebol itself, was not released as 
open sourced ...

Jaime - so what is your environment of choice for the future being? 
Is that a Python?

Yes not many people willing to contribute to Orca, the sad thing 
is that I know of at least 3 more complete clones that have not been 
delivered due authors wish. So Rebol is quite fragmented. And all 
the hopeshare goes to RT. I wish people could gather around just 
one code base, and work like many other comunities, but there is 
something here holding people back.

author wish = Carl?

Nope different authors.

Karl Robillard is the only one that has come out with an actual viable 
clone, and the only one that keeps coding in the open and sharing.

ah, I don't understand them then. Why so? Maybe because they don't 
want hurt RT? The question is, what is hurting the situation more 
:-)

If RT would deliver on their plans, that there would be no objections, 
but :-) Did not know there are other full clones. I knew of one, 
but not three of them :-)

Pekr, my development  choices are:
Cross Platform Stand Alone Apps -> PLT-Scheme
Web Apps -> Ruby-on-Rails
OSX only Apps -> Cocoa or F-Script.

anyway - why not to open plug-in itself? Wasn't it said, that RT 
will keep the kernel, and the rest, including the concole, most parts 
of View, will be open-sourced?

PLT - never heard of that ...

Could not Ruby be used for stand alone apps too?

Who knows, just like we don't understand any of the decisions or 
unkept promises. (We waited how long for OSX-SDK? How long for async, 
etc. So many promises, so little delivered).

I wonder why Python is missing - cross platform, really cross platform, 
including small devices, .Net, very large community, lots of tools 
around, etc.

Pekr, Ruby and stand alone yes. But packaging is not as easy as PLT-Scheme, 
which just gives you a single binary like rebol.

(That ends my ranting, Orca still has a chance if anyone time please 
feel welcome to contribute, I sign-off from this channel now)

I just tried to install the latest plugin for FireFox. I manually 
removed all previous version files but the automatic installation 
didn't work. I managed to get it working after I downloaded the whole 
instalation page locally and run it from my harddisk...very strange. 
Does anyone have simmilar problems? (I'm running Firefox 1.5.0.4 
on WinXP SP1)

Ah, found the problem.

The instalation popup window is not opening when you have set options->content->always 
warn when trying install new plugin (this is rough translation as 
I'm using Czech FireFox) and you don't have added www.rebol.com in 
'trusted servers' in this option dialog.

Maybe this could be noted on the instalation page?

BTW it is interesting that Flash doesn't need such settings as I 
was able to install Flash plugin without having the flash server 
in the 'allowed servers'. Maybe they are using different instalation 
technique?

I think it is in the instructions.  I remember doing this.

Ah yes! You are right :) Sorry, have to read it better next time 
:)

but you're still right that flash does not require this.

Perhaps they have some special dispensation?

Maybe it is because it is 'official plugin' registered on firefox 
site?

I think Rebol should 'officially register' once it gets to release 
state.

well... that won't be a while on account of the delay

hm :/

Yes, good idea. We are going to look at officially registering with 
Mozilla.org, that will eliminate the need to modify Exceptions list 
in FireFox.

for security: Until the plugin is fixed, could it show an own page 
first where it ask "do you really want to run this script?". then 
it would be still easy to show a demo to friends, but not for others 
to sneak scripts in.

Regarding comment above on "... jumping around from plan to plan....":

Sorry, but we are not.  Our plan has not changed in a long time. 
 But, what you see are pieces of the plan in development in parallel. 
 To explain...

REBOL 3.0 architecture consists of 3 tiers: environments, cores, 
plugins.

Environments are modules such as: console, browser, encap... but 
in R3.0 also things like Apache mod, IDE, enbedded, raw I/O, and 
others.

What can we say?  It's the perception amongst developers.

Yes, and I understand how you can draw that conclusion.

How close is R3 anyway?  Is it that close to replacing R2?

A number of us have projects based upon statements made about the 
plugin.

No, it is not that close to R2 for several reasons.... which is also 
why I look for parallel projects related to it.

In cases where development efforts for R2 also benefit R3, then we 
can do them now. That is the case of the Browser.