World: r3wp

Oh well, you can see how we can get confused.

in french i'ts delivered: st-ee-v

st-e-v, instead

I think Reichart needs to add the ability to play back wav files 
attached to a nick :)

Oldes: "But the unicode in gui must be, else the changes in core 
were useless."

I think the Core changes would still be useful for server-side apps.

Richard is 185cm, I'm 187cm, so, having checked, I'm tallker (and 
bigger).  I'm 100 kg.

By design that we make you download it.  It is being treated as a 
file.

taller

Richard was standing bit in front, that's the reason why he appears 
to be bigger than Reichart :)

Graham, in case you missed it: The BBS gave a good range of bugs 
to fix. It was probably built in half a day. The rest of the time 
was (and still is) spent fixing bugs in the core and my skin. We 
are not "wasting time".

i would like to know how to become an alpha tester ?

of rebol3

Claude - there was some public alpha release of R3 in January. We 
are trying to convince Carl to release next alpha in some near future, 
but I am not sure how it turns out.

Pekr, checked your mail? :-)

First alpha release in January, and we're now in December, and writing 
a simple app exposes major bugs in core/vid .... it's really all 
quite tragic.

The sparse release strategy is flawed.

Mail? Not yet, just private message on r3-alpha ... sometimes some 
ppl do fatal mistakes :-)

Graham - OSNews contains link to Perl6 - it is in development 8 years, 
so we are not slowest at least :-)

The mantra of iterative development is release early and often. Frequent, 
tangible, working releases are at the heart of the iterative approach.

The iterative approach allows frequent feedback .. to mold development.

Evolution is the result of forces acting on systems ... if there 
is no feedback, or the environment is not rich enough .. then development 
occurs  much more slowly.

I suggested to Carl to consider KDE 4 aproach. It was in development 
few years, and it seeemed like there is no end to this. So the team 
decided to cut some features for 4.1 and later, mark recent state 
as 4.0, and release it. They were criticised, but I do understand 
their motives. Those are mainly psychological - release, and never 
look back. Use current one. Are there bugs? OK, let's fix them, and 
go ahead ...

yep

should have started with core ...

and retrofitted as needed

instead we are at a point where nothing is usable

Pekr, I agree it was a mistake. :-)

Graham: Open or closed development. Right now, I'm not sure it would 
speed anything up. I think things would actually slow down. But this 
has been discussed to death.

Henrik - I am not sure I have any intention to participate in VID 
world, even if invited. I suggested you and BrianH initially to Carl 
on purpose. My understanding of situation back at that time was, 
that VID 3.4 is almost finished, and 2 ppl are needed to help it 
to finish it. I was probably wrong, as now it once again seem, as 
a regular release. So as for me, what was initial purpose of r3-alpha 
world, now moved to new GUI world.

Pekr, thanks :-)

Henrik .. it can't get any slower.

Henrik - I understand your attitude and am sane enough to know, that 
I make very often stir/noise. But you are typical example of elitism, 
and I don't like it :-) While you might enjoy being close to source, 
you might not understand frustration of other devs out there. I think 
that Carl is not used to work with larger teams, makes his decisions 
himself. It is very difficult to proceed faster, unless Carl finds 
some leutenants. Pity Ladislav is not here anymore. Hopefully BrianH, 
Maarten, Gabriele, Cyphre, Dockimbel are trustworthy coders, to delegate 
some work.

henrik, you claim that working on the BBS was a good thing .. but 
if development had been opened up, these show stoppers would have 
been detected long ago, and we would not have this embarrassment.

The whole development process is missing some signs of good project 
management. I don't say it like critique, it is not ... I am just 
stating facts. We are not able to stick to even close targets. The 
initial purpose of Bugbase, DevBase, BBS, etc., was to provide cooperation 
infrastructure, and provide it ASAP. Instead there is now REBOL based 
effort to develop BBS, but without keeping to initial reasoning, 
what should BBS provide us.

I have to agree.

Graham, no they actually wouldn't. As I've mentioned before, the 
bug detection rate is still higher than the fix rate. How on earth 
would opening it up help development at all?

because critical bugs would be detected ...

which clearly were not

They ARE being detected.

We should drop the VID work .... and just fix core for a release 
as in Rebol 1

Henrik - I can tell you one thing, which I smiled to :-) Carl is 
imo worrying, that releasing in current state could put us in situation, 
where we would not be able to handle the load. And I know, that you 
mostly back up everything Carl says ;-), but then I pointed him to 
R3-alpha release wiki page. He told me he forgot about that site, 
and that he forgot we already did something like that. So please 
- give me an answer - first public alpha was released in last january, 
and NOTHING bad happened. It was released only because of my constant 
push and ramblings. So - why should devs collapse under some heavy 
load now, one year later? Nothing like that will happen.

this bottom up, top down, and anything that grabs Carl's attention 
is not working.

Graham, it's working quite perfectly from my perspective: Bugs are 
being fixed as fast as they can.

Henrik - you can be sure, that many devs out there would share my 
opinion ...

Pekr, nothing happened, because no one is using it, because it doesn't 
have unicode.

Are you saying that noone was using alpha because of the lack of 
Unicode? That would contradict why ppl do use R2, no?

also the public release can't be used in production environments. 
R2 can.

Henrik - this was so nice. Release often, ppl felt the process is 
dynamic, ppl felt constant progress. We tried it several times in 
the past, but not longer than for one months, and then - another 
blackout: http://www.rebol.net/wiki/R3_Earlier_Releases

Henrik - we are dealing with human beings here. And you might be 
forgetting about it. If we want the community, not just customers 
to buy products, we have to support them, provide them ways to get 
involved. Even if the alpha was released to satisfy those unsatisfied 
ones, it served the purpose. Ppl will become familiar with it, play 
with it, maybe find some bugs. Who cares, if CureCode is loaded with 
thousands of tickets? The bugs are there, or they are not there. 
DevTeam can choose what to fix ....

The release early and often style doesn't hold up for early alphas. 
It works better when the product is more stable, so you can get reasonable 
feedback. I wonder how much time the KDE team would have saved, had 
they waited till 4.1 with a release.