World: r3wp

sqlab, did you upgrade to latest alpha 95?

Here is slight comparison with the latest R3 release:


I used this script identically for all tests: http://cyphre.mysteria.cz/tests/mandelbrot-int.r

results on AMD Athlon 1.4GHz, 1GB RAM:


REBOL2 partially JIT compiled version	 	0.471s      1.0   speed ratio
REBOL2 (REBOL/View 2.7.6.3.1 14-Mar-2008)	12.15s    25.8 x slower
REBOL3 (r3-a95.exe)					13.87s    29.45 x slower
REBOL3 (r3-a94.exe)					17.54s    37.24 x slower

yes, 
 Version:   2.100.95.3.1
 Build:     24-Nov-2009/6:42:02

msvcrtd.dll disabled

Hm, I need to test some more, I guess, because I initially see a 
speed increase, but your results show differently.

Same mandelbrot:
REBOL 2 ver. 2.7.6.3.1	9.35s
r3-a95.exe			7.521s


Results is from an Intel Pentium 4 CPU 2.80GHz running WinXP. Maybe 
R3 is compile optimized for intel CPUs?

sqlab, how do I check, if msvcrtd.dll is enabled/disabled?

just rename it or put it somewhere out of the search paths.
It was needed for the first a95 release with debug information.

Ok, got it. More info here:
http://www.rebol.net/cgi-bin/r3blog.r?view=0297#comments

Gabriele, is it possible to dispatch multiple request to wiki TCP 
examples "pong" server listening on single port? It should be possible 
but for me second request is without response until the first still 
open. Your HTTP scheme is too much complicated to me as lecture reading 
:). I've tried to transform rebol.org webserver to R3, I've got response, 
but seems to me useles to serve one and one only connection at time 
when the port is asynchronous by nature. Any hint?

We've been through this, but I still have to bring it up. "REBOL 
3 needs a new name"

A new name, a new beginning, and a new reputation.

What was the consensus last time? I still disagree about changing 
any names, btw.

I decided to use REBOL to develop our system a couple of months ago, 
and everyone was against me. Now the system was done, they were surprised 
at how quickly I did this using a scripting language. They considered 
this development process a good example of the productivity of scripting 
language. They want me to talk about it in front of 400+ employees 
in the tech department. But I am too afraid to say REBOL out loud 
in front of people now. I will call REBOL "a dynamic language" in 
the tech convention. I just cannot call it REBOL. Last time I did 
this, everyone was question me.

So please please please rename REBOL to something else.

I remember Carl like the name "AltScript"

REBOL 3 beta is coming out soon. If we want REBOL to have a new name. 
This is the right time.

I would be also in favor of  renaming Rebol. The impact on those 
who already know or use Rebol would not be negative, and it could 
be a good opportunity to launch a "new Rebol ", with a new image 
to the other.

Jerry, make sure you mention what REBOL stands for:

Relative Expression Based Object Language

I'm against changing the name for several reasons:


- The name is established. It takes years to re-establish a new name 
to gain new momentum. Carl's company name needs to change as well.

- You need to relate REBOL 2 with <new-language-name>. This requires 
effort and you'll have to waste a long time explaining this fact.

- There are already too many *-script languages out there, which 
makes AltScript less distinctive. So, is it a Javascript or Applescript 
derivative or what?

Downsides to REBOL:


- The name is overused, which is why there are people against the 
name.
- Pronounciation problem.
- Pointy-haired boss problem (REBOL? REBEL? Hackertool.)
- REBOL is sometimes confused as a COBOL or ALGOL derivative.

- Had REBOL been named AltScript in the beginning, there may not 
have been a problem, but also no distinction.

Suggestions:


- Tone down the use of the name. Use the name as for a technology 
engine, rather than something end-users will confront, like DirectX 
or OpenGL.

Jerry, why do you think that people who have problems with REBOL 
name will not have same problems with any other name? I think that 
changing name will not make things easier. They will be scared in 
the same way. Mostly that   using something new is hazardous. For 
example if you are the only one in the company who knows how to program 
in REBOL, what if you will have some incident suddenly? This is nothing 
what renaming can solve. Anyway, such a discussions are usualy in 
Advocacy chat.

I wouldn't change it. Python, Scheme, Java not very elegant as well.

I agree with Henrik, both on not changing it and on the problem list. 
 I've gotten past all that at work though, the development group 
knows what REBOL is and can talk about it in conversation just like 
they do Ruby (they are Java based primarily).  One thing I do find 
that seems to give some relief on the name issue is just to call 
it R3.

I also agree with Henrik, and believe that you really need to stress 
that the name was derived from an acronym as pointed out by Henrik. 
 Once that is fully understood, the relationship to rebel or the 
negative meaning should be a thing of the past.  The benefit is more 
people will be aware of the acronymn that was used to derive the 
name.

I have colleagues that called Rebol  REBOLa, likening it to a virus 
after a colleague's machine acted up after installing Rebol.  It 
was coincidental as I have never in my years heard anyone else complain 
of a similar happening.

Carl should also emphasis the name being derived from the acronymn, 
directly on his website in big bold type, so it is more understood.

AltScript sounds like some yet another scripty thing to me.. nothing 
to remember it by .. They are scared because they don't know it, 
probably never heard of it so it's that what we have to change. I 
think the R3 openeness and new features will make it more approcable 
by the masses so there is a chance to spread. Also rebol community 
is qute self sufficient and closed in it's own world which doesn't 
help at being "everywhere".

..

If you want it to sound right to the enterprisey people you should 
rename it to **JavaLisp** now that would be something that sounds 
right :)

the use of R3 as a name is less annoying.  I hate saying rebel in 
conversation when refering to it.   it really doesn't give a good 
impression.  which is why I do my best NOT to pronounce it rebel, 
but rEbOl.

I just realised that a nice same could be "square", in reference 
to its orthogonality and the use of square brakets.

R3 is my opinion is not great.  I work in a company that deals with 
a large installation of SAP, which is often referred to SAP R/3. 
 This may change one day, but I don't know when, it's a major undertaking 
upgrading this environment.  Also, what do you do when you increment 
R3 to the next major release, rename again to R4, or start calling 
it R3 v2 or something of the like?

yep... R4  :-)  the number is invisible.   we understand that its 
an increment of R

but its not the product name, just used in discussion.

to be clear   "R3 is my opinion is not great."  should read "R3 in 
my opinion is not a great name either"
.

so you are saying rename Rebol to R

nope, just refer to rebol using that instead of REBOL, once you explained 
the acronym.

that could work

but rebol is a backronym, so its relative precision is... well, imperfect, 
at least.

the fact that name change comes back over and over IS a clue to the 
fact that the name isn't well chosen.


its aggressive, that's all there is to it for me.  if rebol was called 
"goat" "lisa" or "amigo".   we wouldn't care about the name... it 
would just be a label, but rebol, which is intended to be a spin 
on rebel, isn't passive.  it has some kind of "I know better than 
you" tone to it, which REALLY doesn't cross well in the real-world 
marketplace.

R is a scientific language primarily used for statistics

I'd prefer any non negative  name.  charm, zen, other, speak, do, 
make, eureka, sanskript, gaya, bobcat, merlot, elemental, message, 
companion, velvet.


rebol has no "name to upkeep"  after all these years, rebol.org doesn't 
even have 1000 scripts, come on.   REBOL technologies doesn't have 
to change its name, the language is a product of a company.


R.E.B.O.L  WITH the dots, could stay in reference to the technology 
upon which the language is built, but even that isn't very precise 
to begin with.


an acronym so closely tied to the technology binds the technology, 
or looses its meaning as the technology evolves.  The best names 
are abstract to what they represent .

Bringing up a forgotten feature from early R3 days:

>> a: [a b c]
== [a b c]

>> a: next a
== [b c]

>> clear head a
== []

>> a
== [] ; Script Error: Out of range or past end in R2

>> past? a
== true ; new for R3

>> tail? a
== true

Just for fun :-)

How aout PEBOL instead of REBOL ... where P stands for Prototypical 
,and the name sounds like people to show that it is people friendly 
:)

Changing the default file extension to .r3 from .r would be even 
better than changing REBOL's name for me.

Max: I agree with you: REBOL is not an acronym, it is a backronym. 
Examining the "Relative Expression Based Object Language":

*"Relative Language" does not have a standard meaning

*"Expression Based Language" - standard is "Expression Oriented Language"

*"Object Language" - standard is "Object-based", or "Object Oriented"

Peter, I agree. That's what I'm doing on my system already.

sounds like the acronym came first and the meaning second

So should we call it REOOL?

RECOOL

nice :) "C" is for what?

communication?