World: r3wp

Question is, how long this situation will last, before I see a stable 
version across the platforms ...

 - I don't know, noone knows. The thing we need is - testing. So - 
 find a bug, file a bug, talk to Brian or Carl, make it a higher priority, 
 it will get fixed.

Do you think, the time will ever be right for people doing such ports 
to all different kinds of OSs? A situation, where the OS-dependent 
parts of R3 will be open source and documented. I have my doubts.

One thing I have learned  over the years: never care for the "new"version. 
Use what you have, and consider it as what it is... just another 
tool.

So R2 is great, often. Sometimes it is not. The longer R3 takes, 
the more often alternatives will be viable. That simple. I'd love 
to help on R3, but I have work,  kids, etc.

The way I see it (now)is R2 is just a product thatI bought that gives 
great value. But who knows.... tomorrow there might be this awesome 
language called "Zen" and after 2 years I am so good with it... you 
get the picture :-)

The goal is not R2/R3 ... the goal is to be effective. So you can 
make money. And so on.

Right.

I do remember myself panicking xy times in the past. Other panicked 
too - we all arged Carl to get back to finishing Core first, then 
move forward. But Carl thinked otherwise - that R3 is good enough 
to attract new users via GUI. You all surely know, how difficult 
it is to change Carl's mind. But OTOH Carl listens to what we say.

So the answer to your question is - yes, I really think we are months 
at max away from the source releases and real porting efforts. In 
the meantime, do what Maarten suggests - just sit and watch, and 
accept things being just an alpha, not a beta ...

Pekr, I just started my old r3-status.r from the r3-alpha world.


One of the top priority bugs in that is #60 division by zero. I went 
to Curecode and read about the bug dated 4-Jun-2007, and I tried 
it in latest R3. It's still there.


Another high priority, #115 dated 11-Jun-2007 has status waiting. 
Waiting for what?


A third is about money! datatype, #250. Currency now seem to be removed 
from R3, so it can't be tested anymore. So R3 will not have currency?

etc...


So you see, there are lots of things to put in rock at the lowest 
level. So no need to discuss all the higher level things (from my 
viewpoint), before those lower levels are fixed.


An example of backward development or bad planning or whatever. The 
issue! test, I just wrote about. It seems to be because of unicode. 
So the plan for all this wasn't made, when the issue! datatype was 
programmed? Now what? Do we have to roll all back and do heavy testing 
again at the lowest level?

If you don't watch Chat, you probably also missed Carl's info - he 
is working on a list of items, which will turn R3 into beta.

just sit and watch

No, I don't intend to. :-)

Geomol, I'm not sure why it surprises you that R3 takes a long time 
to build. It's always been difficult to determine exactly when R3 
would be considered stable. Building the GUI was a very quick way 
to expose multiple bugs of which some are solved (including some 
nasty memory related crashes).

OK, then don't sit and wait, but please try to be constructive. Or 
in other words - don't try to be a Pekr :-D

Also, why haven't people started working on protocols yet? The docs 
have been there for months and ports are ready for heavy testing.

Henrik - maybe ppl fear that low-level port system is not final yet? 
Who knows ...

:-)

That's the whole point of building protocols now, to test the port 
system.

Let's see, based on Carl's original testing hierarchy, protocols 
is level 18. No, I won't start testing protocols, when all the levels 
below that has bugs.

I would feel, I was wasting my time doing that.

How do you know there are port bugs? Are there any in Curecode?

I don't understand your aproach, Geomol. What levels are you talking 
about?

Exactly - all bug reports are supposed to be moved into CureCode. 
If there is some bug which is not there, it is an ommision, and it 
should be filled.

Geomol, the bugs I found in the port system would not have been found 
unless the HTTP protocol had been written.

The test priorities are here:
http://www.rebol.net/wiki/R3_Alpha_Test_Priorities

Geomol - give me bug tickets you want to have fixed, and we will 
see what can be done.

Written by Carl.

Yes, written by Carl. And then ignored by everyone else. No one wrote 
any tests for him.

Geomol, we're not dealing with a business system that you would potentially 
have to pay millions for (yet!). That's why it makes a lot of sense 
to write some apps now for it.

I made r3-status.r script based on that list from Carl. So no, not 
ignored.

I also worked with someone in r3-alpha to do tests, that would make 
all those low levels a green ok in r3-status.r.

Eh, there is many docs written by Carl, that are forgotten. DocBase 
became a mess, it needs serious clean up (e.g. all docs about VID3 
should be removed, it confuses ppl). When I told to Carl, that we 
need release notes, he told me he needs to think about doc structure. 
So I pointed him to one year old Doc of his (earlier alphas) and 
he told me he forgot about the doc :-)

Henrik - wasn't there some test suite with earlier alphas?

Pekr, only the framework and a few smaller tests. That was when Carl 
was talking about how huge an undertaking these tests would be.

I still regard it being a good start for further test submissions 
...

What I mean is, let's take first point in Carl's list. Scanner bugs. 
Are there any? Is
--1:23

a bug? Yes, it is. I don't have time to find all these low level 
bugs, but it seems, I easily find some of them, when I start looking. 
So problem maybe is, that people are not looking, and Carl don't 
document, how people can look for these things. It's because the 
whole thing is closed to some degree.

Geomol, again, did you post that bug to Curecode? Did BrianH see 
it so he could prioritize it for Carl?

Ah, found it - http://www.rebol.net/r3blogs/0125.html

Nope, as I see it, there are so many bugs, that I would use all my 
time posting to Curecode. I don't have that time.

Geomol, then you are not beneficial to the R3 project!

I tried to post things, and I tried to help with priority (r3-status.r), 
but it's not used.

sorry, but it upsets me, because that's plain backwards and non-productive 
to not report these bugs.

I was, I am not much these days, because I've lost faith in the project. 
:-)

Then there's no point in continuing the conversation, is there?

I'm not backward. :-) Carl started with these low level tests. We 
should have stayed there, until the thing was stable. But Carl (and 
therefore others) moved on.

unreported bugs will remain unfixed. period.

Was the test framework ever published?

Henrik, I'm sharing my view in hope, it can bring R3 to a stable 
version across platforms at some time. I guess, I've made my point 
now.

unreported bugs will remain unfixed. period.


Reported bugs at low levels will also remain unfixed for years, it 
seems. That's one thing, I try to point out here.

Peter: it was published only for r3-alpha users ....

Geomol - I think that you actually don't care about R3 at all :-)

PeterWood, it was in r3-alpha AltME world. I'm not sure, if it's 
outside that place.