World: r3wp

Yes

2 weeks ago I have intorduced Rebcode(some alphaversion in those 
days) to Oldes who is doing the Rebol to SWF dialect and know very 
well internals of Flash 8. He converted in a few hours one simple 
Flash demo to Rebcode and was amazed about the speed.

In Flash8 he was able to control  hundreds pixels on the screen at 
decent speed while in Rebcode he could do the same operation with 
thousands pixels!

Cool. The gfx magicians. Now only thing needed is an IDE.

We also tested the same script on slower machines(liek 300-500Mhz 
CPUs) and then the performance was about the same like the same flash 
demo on Athlon at 1400Mhz ;)

An IDE you say? ;-)

Yes. Ammon where is yours?

Guys, we should move the discussion to appropriate group. Thanks.

Ask your leader to leave you some time to play outside the task. 
;-)

(moving to chat...)

I'm awaitng some feedback to the survey questions in bold text above. 
Thanks.

The way I see it, without an IDE, it's a lame duck.

Cyphre, when you say "Rebol with Rebcode is faster", do you mean 
the AGG library?

No, he means using Rebcode with AGG.

I'm guessing AGG to do the rendering, rebcode to do the computation 
to generate the data for AGG to render.

If AGG is incorporated into Rebol, isn't there a need to mention 
that in the license?

And when will be able to use AGG with async?

Is AGG licensed as BSD with the advertising clause or without?

If without then RT doesn't have to mention anything. As it is, REBOL 
is mentioned on AGG's website as a user.

Anti-Grain Geometry - Version 2.0
Copyright (C) 2002-2004 Maxim Shemanarev (McSeem)


Permission to copy, use, modify, sell and distribute this software 
is granted provided this copyright notice appears in all copies. 
This software is provided "as is" without express or implied

warranty, and with no claim as to its suitability for any purpose.

Anti-Grain Geometry is an Open Source, free library. You can use 
this software in any commercial or non-commercial projects, free 
of any charge.

Sounds more like the MIT license, even less restrictive than BSD. 
No advertising clause, certainly.

provided this copyright notice appears in all copies.
  Isn't that an advertising clause?

No. The advertising clause would say that they should publically 
say in all advertising of REBOL that it uses AGG. This clause just 
says that they need to include the copyright notice of AGG somewhere, 
not that the notice has to be really visible.

Since View 1.3 is just a binary right now, a string hidden in the 
binary would be sufficient. It doesn't even have to be readable to 
count for this clause, although that is getting iffy.

The advertising clause would be like the "Intel Inside" insert in 
all of the Dell advertising, for instance.

it's not "they should"  and regarding the binary.. you should note 
the word "appears" in the license.

Most of the time that info is put in a ReadMe file or an About dialog, 
but since View has that info online, online docs are where it needs 
to be. And the online docs related to Draw do mention AGG (I think). 
That clause is less restrictive than you think.

Usually the copyright clause only needs to be in the source code 
for it to qualify.

AGG is mentioned in the View release notes, including links to the 
AGG web site.

Yeah, AGG may be good, but I bet it can't do this  http://blueballfixed.ytmnd.com/

you bet it can, Terry:-)

Have you seen pointize demo? It is smaller, but shows how danymic 
it can be ...

and as for sound, you are right, rebol can't really do it ;-)

Terry, what you should probably realise is, that that are only probably 
TWO libraries for vector graphics in the open-source world - one 
being AGG, second one being Cairo, library which was selected by 
Mozilla foundation, Apple etc. to do SVG. Both are very good work 
imo ...

And looking at Laszlo - it is nice but definitely slower than VID. 
I think that AGG, performance wise, is even better than Flash ...

http://www.epsitec.ch/cresus/documents/base-f.php- All in AGG! Other 
companies using AGG here - http://www.antigrain.com/customers/index.html

AGG is definitely a win for Rebol (compare it to old draw, right?) 
and it provides us with professional grade vector graphics .... Look 
at Canvas RPaint - very good example of what is it capable of ...

the only problem right now is SHOW, which seems to slow things down 
a lot... but I think I've mentioned that before :-)

How do you test? The actual drawing is done inside 'show, the other 
stuff sets only some values. except you use to-image, that has to 
render too.

well, I'm not really sure what goes on, but if I use cyphres rebcode 
demo it runs fine in a small window, but if I set up the display 
size to twice or three times the original size, the framerate really 
slows down. The drawing routine itself shouldn't care about the resolution, 
so I think it's something in SHOW

SHOW does some kind of "dumb" full screen refresh. it's also visible 
when using Canvas. even if you only draw one pixel, drawing is slow 
in large screen areas.

The following code demonstrates this. Comment / uncomment the draw 
effect line to see the difference a simple draw command makes.

count: 100

do-test: func [label info /local img-size start end] [
	img-size: to-pair label/text
	img: to image! layout [

  origin 0 box img-size blue reform ["Testing" img-size ". . ."] font 
  [size: 24]
	]
	view/new/options center-face layout [
		origin 0 i: image img img/size
		;effect [draw [circle 100x100 100]]
	] [no-title no-border]
	;	test loop
	start: now/time/precise
	loop count [show i]
	end: now/time/precise
	;	display result
	info/text: form to-integer count / (to-decimal end - start)
	show info
	unview
]

view layout [
	title "Resolutions"
	across la: label 100 "800x600" ia: info 100 center
	return lb: label 100 "1024x768" ib: info 100 center
	return lc: label 100 "1280x1024" ic: info 100 center
	return btn "Run" [do-test la ia do-test lb ib do-test lc ic]
]

In answer to Cyphre's question, my opinion is that changes that prevent 
(or make difficult) SVG rendering are not desirable. So if the proposed 
change(s) don't hinder SVG rendering them I'm all for them.

Cyphre question :  i think the same ..  gradient is good the way 
it is for pure draw coders (i you have to make an SVG to DRAW translator 
(my case) you only need gradients that take in charge other kind 
of values nothing more...)

Ok, thanks to all of you who responded to my qestion.

Regarding the SHOW performance: I can tell you that this improvement 
is on RT priority list.

And is it on bottom of that list, or in middle or on top of it? ;)

I'd say it is around the middle line *at the moment*.

OK, I'm just curious :)