World: r3wp
[Red] Red language group
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Kaj 5-Jan-2012 [4264x5] | The people who are supposed to be wise don't get it, either: |
By the way, not like any readable Haskell. | |
>>----- Quote ---->> Lisp with square parenthesis? <<----- Quote ---- << Yes, another Lisp for the poor" " | |
And one light: | |
Cheers, been waiting for this release | |
Henrik 6-Jan-2012 [4269x3] | well, if people are judging a language on that, then it's impossible to discuss it on a higher level. |
I wonder now, what people generally thought of C, when it came out. Of course things were slightly different back then. | |
2 more watchers of the github repository. | |
Dockimbel 6-Jan-2012 [4272] | My floating point support todo-list for Red/System: http://groups.google.com/group/red-lang/browse_thread/thread/5fe1e6bde8576d51?hl=en |
Pekr 6-Jan-2012 [4273x3] | what is that channel? If a new one, a forum, please add it to the Community section on red-lang.org? |
btw - did not Ladislav do something with floating and rounding C level support for R3? Maybe you could consult with him .... | |
btw - I would not hesitate to post that info as a normal blog article on a red-lang.org, or some ppl might miss it? | |
Dockimbel 6-Jan-2012 [4276x3] | what is that channel? Just the Red's mailing-list, nothing new there. |
Ruby's author Matz (Yukihiro Matsumoto) tweeting about Red: http://t.co/rUZtxSOE | |
Well, the floating point support is just planned for now, not even a work in progress, I'll blog about it when it will be more tangible. | |
Janko 6-Jan-2012 [4279x2] | Wow Doc , EPIC .. |
I predict rebol-like will be going mainstream in 2 years :) | |
Dockimbel 6-Jan-2012 [4281] | If we do things right, it is not impossible. ;-) |
Janko 6-Jan-2012 [4282x3] | my webapps (latest one is wip timetracking) code is getting cleaner and shows more benefits with every itteration. And all in direction only rebol-like langs (not even lisps) can provide AFAIK. And ages away from classical / python / ruby code. |
(and I am not even that good at reabol .. some code that I saw at powermezz was also nothing I've seen before) | |
like nothing | |
Pekr 7-Jan-2012 [4285] | Just a question towards the RED possible performance. Are all RED natives going to be implemented in Red/System? There might be possible cases, where RED is going to be slower than REBOL, no? E.g. SORT - in REBOL, it goes directly to the C level. If RED compiles to RED/System, and SORT is going to be written in RED/System, which will be surely slower than C, then there will be cases, when RED is slower than REBOL? Well, we might as well implement SORT or math intensive stuff in C directly, as kind of cross-platform lib, and pass it over, but then such a library would have to be compiled for all platforms ... |
Dockimbel 7-Jan-2012 [4286x2] | Once we'll work on optimizing Red, we'll use the fastest routines available for critical code parts. For SORT, I'm not sure it will be slower, but if it's the case, we'll use the C version. |
I mean we'll use qsort() if faster than the equivalent in Red/System. Building a runtime lib in C for Red is not necessary, that would defeat one of the purpose of Red/System. | |
Henrik 7-Jan-2012 [4288] | if I were to use SOURCE on a native! in Red, would it show the actual source? |
Pekr 7-Jan-2012 [4289x2] | Watching your floating point support, another question - is it possible (later) for Red/System to evelve into general C wrapper? I mean - that I would not need to use C, but Red/System, maybe plus inlined C/ASM, having math operations including floats? But maybe that's not Red/System intended purpose even in the long run? |
As I understand it, the priority is to support such features in Red/System recently, to allow 1) wrapping of external libraries 2) provide enough of ground for RED itself to be compiled into ... | |
Kaj 7-Jan-2012 [4291x2] | Red/System has supported that from the start |
The point of developing an own low level language with an own compiler is to not need C and a C compiler. Which is something we can use very well in Syllable, for example | |
Andreas 7-Jan-2012 [4293x2] | RED/System, which will be surely slower than C. There's no reason for that to be necessarily the case. Red/System is a compiled, low-level language; at the very same level as C. |
And as Kaj already said as well, Red/System is actually not only to "evolve into general C wrapper?", it is meant to actually replace C (for some purposes). Red/System aims to interface nicely with native libraries (which are, more often than not, created by using C). | |
BrianH 7-Jan-2012 [4295x2] | The only reason that Red/System would be slower than C would be if the C optimizer were better than the Red/System optimizer. The languages have similar semantic models and are implemented similarly - they are in the same class, more or less. |
I can only hope that Red's SORT will be more correct than the one in R3, which has known bugs :( | |
Steeve 7-Jan-2012 [4297x2] | It will be slower in average especialy for looping intensive computations like the sorting algorithms. I don't think the Red compiler can remain simple and beat a full featured optimizing c compiler. |
The simple current compiler technique used by Red (variable pushed/poped on the stack ) is already easly beaten by any c compiler. | |
Andreas 7-Jan-2012 [4299] | Any C compiler with a register allocator, that is :) |
Steeve 7-Jan-2012 [4300] | obviously ;-) |
Andreas 7-Jan-2012 [4301x2] | Yes, there are C compilers that don't care :) |
TCC for example, if I'm not mistaken. | |
Steeve 7-Jan-2012 [4303] | TCC is for science not for business :) |
Andreas 7-Jan-2012 [4304] | Don't say that :) TCC has many obscure uses :) |
Dockimbel 7-Jan-2012 [4305x2] | Steeve: certainly, but as you might have noticed, Red/System current implementation is a bootstrap for the Red/System future version written in Red. So all the current Red/System code written in REBOL, will be trashed once Red will be mature enough. Adding heavy optimizations at this point would be just a waste of time and energy that would serve no purpose. |
For example, supporting fastcall calling convention and having a good register allocator are part of the optimizations that will be added when Red/System will be rewritten. Also, the internal compiler architecture, especially the code emitter will be quite different from the current one. I plan to introduce an intermediary representation and an internal event-based API. The various optimizations should be added as plugins/modules to the compiler, allowing to "hook" at various different stages of the compilation process. Also, this "API" should be partially (or fully) exposed at Red level, allowing to "easily" write Red & Red/System compiler extensions if needed. | |
Andreas 8-Jan-2012 [4307] | Public service announcement: it's "Red", not "RED". Thanks for listening :) |
Henrik 8-Jan-2012 [4308x2] | I think RED is a registered trademark. |
(anyway) | |
Dockimbel 8-Jan-2012 [4310] | Thanks. :-) |
Pekr 8-Jan-2012 [4311] | Doc, would you be interested in getting BeagleBone for the kind of experiments? See links group for more info. IMO embedded & mobile should be Red's target ... |
Dockimbel 8-Jan-2012 [4312x2] | I'm interested in a board that would require 500mV for running as it seems to be the limit for the small solar panel + battery, I've ordered for powering my Arduino. |
Also, I will get my hands on the Raspberry first, we'll see for others after that. (I admit that the BeagleBone boars specs are seducing too) | |
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