World: r3wp

Cyphre - I am not sure if we should accept CSS document model here, 
as users/designers are used to it? I tried to search for some typography 
vocabulary, but there is not much in it:

http://www.proximasoftware.com/fontexpert/terms/


Then I also looked into MS Word (well, not the best DTP option, I 
know :-), but I am somehow satisfied, how paragraph styling is done 
in it, and I find it pretty much flexible. So few of my notes:

PAGE:
--------
- text-gob - let's say it equals to page


- margin should allow to set 4 sides, as is with CSS and even DTP 
systems. DTP system talk about margin as about the space to the edge 
of the paper. I don't know, how such terms are used in conjunction 
to R3 GUI, but we should somehow find-out, how to not be confusing. 
But - having just a single marign is not imo sufficient.


- origin should replace scroll, and it should mean offset. But looking 
into VID2, origin just did what you propose - but I don't like it, 
as it required us to introduce offset to VID2.

PARA:


- indent - e.g. MS Word defines: indent-left, indent-right (kind 
of creates margins/padding, if you relate to CSS terms), then they 
have indent-special - first-line | "pre-indent" (-first-line,not 
much usefull). It also has check-box for "mirror setting", which 
changes indent-left to inner, and indent-right to outer (dunno what 
it is good for)


- spacing - top-space | bottom-space - but here, it is not inner 
space in paragraph, it is more of an indentation between paragraphs. 
In other words - I can imagine calling it even padding (as we are 
used from VID2, we used space there for the auto-spacing). It allows 
you to set, that it will not add space in between two paragraphs 
of the same style. It also allows you to set spacing for rows - either 
by float, or by multiples, 1,5 rows, double, the-least-possible (pixels), 
exactly (pixels)


- paging - some stuff to set in regards to paragraph and paging, 
as linking of paragraphs, linking of lines

- runaround settings (dunno if correct english term)

last one would be line wrapping?

you are also missing alignment... especially horizontal.

yes, forgot alignment, sorry - but that is obvious we need it - left, 
right, box, middle (horizontal), and top, middle, bottom (vertical)

but you see? MS Word does not offer anything like vertical alignment, 
as para does not contain margins/padding, it only contains left right 
indentation, and the paragraph spacing, so they can't do it ...

The question really is, if we should not really support CSS box model, 
even if most of the time, you would not use some of parameters ...

With current proposal, you might have problems to build browser in 
rebol (not that I expect anyone doing so)

there's support for CSS-like box model in R3GUI, this has nothing 
to do with text gobs.

I know, and my question is - why not?

CSS is VERY bad at text layout.  I would not want use that model 
for a rich text editor... really it would be aggravating.

its good at boxes, but not in handling their content... and its pretty 
underspecced as to how content and boxes interfere, which leads to 
the many differrent interpretations in various browers.

Pekr, thanks for your useful feedback, some reactions:

PAGE

margin should allow to set 4 sides

 - this is done by using ORIGIN and MARGIN pair!s in the proposal, 
 I agree, we can use MARGIN with two pairs instead of that

origin should replace scroll
 - ok, makes sense if we accept the point above

PARA


indent - INDENT should define rectangular space at the beginning 
of the paragraph, the left right orientation would be chosen according 
to the horizontal align settings in each  paragraph. The value for 
indent could be pair! (to define the space in both ways) or number! 
to define just the horizontal indentation for the first paragraph 
line only.


spacing - here I'd use SPACING [pair!] for additional space between 
chars (X axis) and lines (Y axis). For space around paragraph (top, 
left, bottom, right) I would use PADDING.


paging - IMO linking of text between gobs at the C level would bring 
us lot of complexity. I still think we should provide functionality 
that can be useful at REBOL script level to handle the linkage.


runaround - this needs to be well thought so it is flexible enough 
once we allow to use embedded gobs in the text flow


alignment - I'd leave it as in the current proposal for now. Which 
means horizontal align can be set per paragraph vertical alignment 
per 'page'(=GOB)


I'll be updating the current document soon to reflect all the changes 
from yours and other useful suggestions. I'll post here once new 
version is online.

OK, sounds reasonable, and I agree in most of the stuff ....

I am just thinking loud now - it seems MS Word has choosen to not 
complicate the matter much. They have page setting (margins), and 
then they have paragraph settings. In paragraphs, they just use indentation 
(left, right, special (first line positive/negative), and nothing 
more. Spacing between paragraphs is done by integer value - number 
of pixels before and after the paragraph, plus special setting, that 
two consecutive paragraphs of the same name don't add the space after 
the paragraph (dunno why they introduced it, but they probably found 
that practically usefull)

I agree, that paging could or even should be solved in higher level. 
It will not be fastest though, so we will see, how it goes.

Indent - is your proposal sufficient? You allow using either issue,e.g. 
3x6 (3px left, 6px right), or integer, e.g. 6px (first line indented 
by 6px) - what if I want to set both. And most probably I want it 
...

you don't need any high performance for the linkage part(if there 
is enough support in the native part)...that's why I think it should 
be at the REBOL level

As for padding - as you can see from MS Word model (please not I 
use it as an example, we don't need to necessarily rely on that) 
does not use padding left, righ - that is done by indentation ...

please not = please note

So in your model, we can set indent 3x6, and we can add further space 
to the left or right by using padding 3x6, so in total the para will 
be shifted by 6x12?

I just want to understand you :-)

padding - I think being able to define whole padding box in one field 
is more intuitive, but I'm open. If we use padding and indent fields 
what would you propose for the current 'padding  feature?

so in total the para will be shifted by 6x12? No, in your case it 
would shift most probably only the first  line in the para by 3px 
from the PADDING origin. If your line heihght would be smaller than 
6px it would shit also second line etc.

it would shit also second line
 - nice typo :-)

|
__| <--padding
                   |<--indent
     ______| Paragraph text is here...

oops, nice typo :)

Hmm, OK, re-reading your indent proposal - is that only for indentation 
purpose of the first line?

If so, then you need only integer, no? The rest is done by padding

in the proposal yes, but I'd enhance it for the Y axis value. The 
number of lines could be the second value in the pair!

I mean - indentation typically defines just how much the first line 
is shifted left/right (99% right). Ms Word adds ability to shift 
whole paragraph left and right (indent-left, indent-right). That 
would be don by padding in your case?

ah, now I undestand

So you want to allow to indent more than one line (row) right?

imagein the PADDING as bounding box of the paragraph + space around 
it..and the INDENT as rectangular space that eats part of the bounding 
box in the top left or right corner.

maybe I should make simple image...?

no, I understand it ...

MS Word:

|
__| <--indent-left
                       |<--indent-first line
     ______| Paragraph text is here...

ah, wrong ....

| <--- page margin, here 0
__| <--indent-left
             |<--indent-first line
__| Paragraph text is here...

Simply put, MS uses simplified model:


indent - set left or right indentation, plus special indentation 
for the first line (in pixels)
padding - before, after paragraph value in pixels ...

When I translate it is just the same :-) You allow indentation of 
more than one line as a bonus :-)

http://cyphre.mysteria.cz/pics/padding-indent.png

I think you can add that pic to your document ...

this one is just quickly sketched..I'll be redoing the current picture 
in the doc to show  it  all better and with updated names etc.

Indent should support negative value.

but only in the X axis I guess

Not to move it back, but to allow
     this kind of paragraph.

yup

But negative indent just means - start at the first pixel from left 
for the first indented lines, use the value as a padding-left value 
from the left. Paragraph itself should stay where it is ....

yes, it would be like another padding-left from Y line

Just to make sure I'm not missing on latest releases - there is no 
A108 or A109 host-kit version available yet?