World: r3wp

Just giving a little report about a very interesting chat I had with 
Carl:


- Host code package is in the works... given priority.  My impression 
is that Carl is really wanting for this to happen.  If any of you 
feel you can actually participate and do real tests and work, now 
is the time to raise your voice.
 

- Devices and the Extensions dll code are part of the host code. 
  Thus, by extrapolation...  We (i.e. Not Carl) could work on a model 
of Device extensions and propose it to Carl, if anyone (or group) 
wants to put the effort.  obviously using the current Extensions 
as the reference...


- As it stands now, adding Native Datatypes is complex outside of 
the rebol core  (ex: in host code) because of a few issues (GC integration 
being a major one).


- Carl isn't against the idea of finding a way to add Native (binary) 
user datatype but it most probably will have to wait a bit until 
Carl and Host developers find a way to make it simple and bug free. 
 a possible idea is to bave a special extension model which acts 
as a datatype marshaller, with defined commands as datatype actions 
(aka accessors in other languages).


- Talked a little bit about threads, but nothing really specific 
to say about it... I'll need to try it in practice so I can ask relevant 
questions.

I don't like point 2) - I think that Carl knows best, how to add 
integration of Devices, eventual callbacks, images, etc. - simply 
the requested stuff. We (the community) should use extensions, we 
should not try to develop its API.

It is a language author call imo ...

Carl will say no if he doesn't like it.  


but do you really think that people which are going to be actively 
helping out in adding this type of code to the host to stray far 
from any ideals Carl may have?

the case is to have a core group of people improving the host in 
parralel.

yes, I understand ... for later, maybe. But as for initial release, 
I would prefer Carl to implement (in regards to extensions) what's 
on a priority list. Believe me - if you shoul Carl, that maybe one 
day we have some ideas here or there, we will not get it for 3.0, 
as Carl will move onto other things.

shoul = show

If a few of us take up the task of managing all of the extensions/device 
interface code, that means Carl can work on other things.  Carl has 
already given us a reference on his idea of how to integrate native 
code into R3.  I wouldn't have done it any differently, honestly.


in any case, we will discuss it with Carl before commiting to any 
time to implementing it.

Exactly - we should be sure, that the design aspect is acceptable 
for Carl, in order to be accepted as a default part of the distro. 
The last thing we need that in such an initial stage, we will end-up 
with one host layer per one developer ;-)

obviously.  Never said it differently.    :-)

as a concrete example, if its possible for me to add image! support 
in Extensions right now (code, test, examples, documentation).... 
I will, and if its done properly, Carl will just be happy to sign 
off on it.

if not, he'll point me in the right direction.  then, when I get 
to vectors... the chance that I get it wrong will be smaller, but 
we have to start somewhere.   We actually have to start doing it 
and stop just talking about it.  :-P

If Carl is needed to really implement devices well, at least we can 
help by getting the almost-well implementations done, so all Carl 
has to do is tweak and merge. We can do a lot of research...

True.

yep... the grunt work is where Carl can use our help.

Solve the annoying hardware issues and connection issues, even proving 
it with examples, and then Carl can just intigrate...

devices could also be used for things like IPC or callbacks.   so 
we could test out different ways to improve multi-threading in rebol 
before commiting to a specific method.

Note: As Carl said for tasking - "the model is: threaded CPU, shared 
memory, shared symbol space, shared system function space, separate 
evaluation stacks, separate user contexts.""

Shared write-protected structures too, afaict.

Now is THE TIME!!!!!! .... for REBOL to claim the king of PARSE!!!!! 
  this is where all REBOL marketing needs to focus IMMEDIATELY!!!!

Yeah I know many people here think I hate REBOL -  but truth is I 
love REBOL more than most of you and I want REBOL DOMINATION!!!!!

Now is the TIME!!!!!!

We finally own a corner!

I'd say we always owned this corner  ;-)

Well I would say until now we didn't.  I believe Parse is now the 
most awesome thing in the programming world.  Really I challenge 
our opponents to step forward with their product.  What is greater? 
 We dominate!!!!!!

Before we had what was very promising but the talent behind people 
like BrianH made Parse what it is now!  Cheers to BrianH for his 
contributions - it is truely selfless.

when rebol came out it was hands down the best parser implementation 
out there... 10 years later the rest of the industry is catching 
up to it.  We've pushed it a little further again.

I know that me and Brian don't always see eye to eye but I'm an honest 
person where Christ has a say and I am humbled to acknowledge that 
Brian is instrumental in some of the greatest achievements of REBOL 
to date and see him as the REBOLer of the YEAR!!!!! if there were 
such a reward!

there is such a reward, vote for him in the user.r group ... right 
here in altme  :-)

I agree Maxim but now REBOL is far superior on the playing field.

Thanks Maxim.  I shall.

and yes, Brian has put a lot of his time into R3 for free.  He has 
been pushing and helping Carl into doing a lot of things which are 
now part of R3.  He deserves our gratitude.  h might have shaven 
a full year off of R3's implementation just by himself.

I agreee Maxim.  I don't always agree with BrianH on my issues but 
when it comes to Parse, I have been dead on with his ideas.

Thanks Brian.

+1

Thanks :D

Seriously, we owe a lot to Peta. PARSE is much better because of 
Peta's work. A bit of a drive-by though: Came, argued well and helpfully, 
then disappeared. I look forward to the next time Peta shows up :)

We owned general-purpose parsing until Perl 6 started catching up. 
We have surpassed them now though :)

Is anyone still using Perl? :-) In the world of PHP, Python, Ruby 
hype? :-)

Wonder where Peta is, though ....

Nice to read you working on the host code together with Carl. Hope 
in a couple of years I'll be ablet to do this too :-) You are a good 
group.

Howevere PARSE is still not complete: REVERS is the only thing I 
miss. However, If we must judge, 95% of work on PARSE is done and 
only 5% is missing.

REVERSE, OF - those are probably left fro 3.1 or later, because they 
are more difficult to implement. We should not thing about R3 development 
being stopped by reaching 3.0 release :-)

I think so. Carl  won't open PARSE rebol code again once it reached 
this stage.

REVERSE, LIMIT and OF (but renamed I hope) are still on the todo 
list, and I really want all of those. My biggest pie-in-the-sky requests 
have been done though (with the exception of USE, which I have a 
workaround for).

Back to discussion of priorities, we shouldn't delay release because 
of those missing operations.

It is triage time, my friends. We are heading to beta, so we need 
to seriously consider what it practical to do quickly, and what needs 
be put off for a bit. REBOL is going to continue to have reasonably 
frequent updates - no more waiting years for the next release - so 
you don't have to act like your favorite proposed feature will never 
arrive if it doesn't make 3.0. We need to figure out what we need 
to make a useful beta.

Infrastructure first, please. That means - as much complete Core 
concept-wise, as possible - Tasking, enhanced extensions, Console 
for Windows, parallel work on View engine, so that 3.1 can come 3-5 
month after 3.0, including initial VID3 release, sound.

REBOL 2 will still be here, and despite what some people have been 
saying it hasn't been abandoned. We have been focusing on R3 lately, 
but there will be new R2 releases to come. Migrating to R3 won't 
be an all-or-nothing affair. Gradual migration and mixed projects 
may be the norm for the short term. We don't want to block our users 
from uusing the killer features of R3 just because it doesn't do 
everything R2 does yet.

This means that we won't be putting off the R3 beta until we reach 
feature parity with R2. In many ways we have already surpassed R2, 
but there will be some things missing in this round (VID). If you 
need those features, keep using R2 for that portion of your project. 
The new GUI won't be compatible with the old ones anyways, so you 
might not want to delay starting migration because you may want to 
rewrite your GUI later.