World: r3wp

I think that good AI on Go is an unsolved problem still.

Ladislav: Yes I thought that it is not dan level. I'm not good on 
Go but I mostly win until 2-4 kyu on IGoWin.

Gabriele: Many Go player says that you should not play with a computer, 
instead, play a human. Or start with a higher handicap.
Its AI is much more difficult than Chess.

Endo, that was perfect.! Thank you, it is good enough to "play with" 
to teach a person the basic play.


I was hoping for online version of EXACTLY this.   The two online 
versions appear to be free of A.I. unless I'm missing something. 
 They are lobbies where you can jump into a game with someone.

good A.I.

 is not important to me, just good enough to confirm basic rules, 
 attempt to win, etc.  You know, something that could replace any 
 president of any country, that type of thing ~

If you want to try more alternatives, Reichart, then there is the 
gnugo program, which may be worth a try as well.

Is there is sig advantage of it over iGoWin?

Free Software :-)

IGoWin is also free.

Ah, no, it's not Free

Not free?? I played it for a long time :)

So? There is no source code and you are forbidden from modifying 
it

oh you mean it is not open source.

it is freeware but not open source. which is fine with me :)

No, I meant what I wrote: Free Software

As far as I can tell, iGoWin does not support standard goban dimensions?

Kaj, nothing like a big cup full of hot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation
in the morning, eh?  You might cut Endo a little slack (and the rest 
of us) since "free software" can mean several things.  No?


Endo, So I can beat the game in a few seoncds now, so I assume I'm 
doing something wrong LOL.

As it stands, when you start the game is gives black 5, and white 
1.  And it is not a 19x19 board.
Perhaps this is part of being the "free" version (as in $ LOL)?


To win al lone needs to do is draw a single line across the board 
with the most territory on your side.  Done, you won.

to win all one needs to do

... yup, now that I have won a few games, it is offering to sell 
me the upgrade :)

Free Software is equally well defined as Freeware and Open Source, 
so I don't see why I couldn't use the term if Endo is using those:

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Anyway, I was just offering an answer to your question

Reichart: computer level stars at 25. kyu, so in first a few games 
it is so easy to win. after several games when your rank is under 
10 it is getting a bit difficult. But if you are a good Go player 
it may not be difficult for you (as I'm not a good one, I stuck at 
2. kyu :) )
But it never offered me an upgrade??

Oh and yes, it is mosly for beginners as its dimension is not 19x19.

Kaj: I didn't know that the definition of Free Software as you say. 
I thought that Free Software and Open Source is two different things. 
Not covering each other.

But still I think that Freeware is different: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeware
Not to be confused with Free software.
 -wikipedia

So I should say that Freeware is fine with me :) As in old days there 
were Public Domain, Freeware and Shareware. And none of them was 
Open Source.

Kaj, the term "Free Software" is very well defined... for people 
who know about it. In English (thus, for anyone else in the world 
besides people like us), "Free Software" means software you don't 
pay for.


You could have easily said «I use "free" in the sense of "freedom" 
not in the sense of "gratis"», instead of trying to confuse Endo 
more...

I'm not a good one, I stuck at 2. kyu

 - I don't think the sentence makes sense. 2 kyu is quite solid strength. 
 On the other hand, the strength estimates of the program are highly 
 unreliable.

Gabriele, we were discussing a GNU program, which set the context, 
and I specifically capitalised the term to avoid ambiguity

Endo, you were right that Free Software and Open Source are two different 
things:

http://opensource.org/docs/osd

They don't cover each other, but they do overlap

To be honest, I did not try to confuse Endo more, but I did not explain 
myself further, either, because I wanted to find out if there are 
really people here who don't know what Free Software is

It's essential for software developers these days to know what Free 
Software and Open Source mean

Kaj: "I wanted to find out if there are really people here who don't 
know what Free Software is" You've found :)

well, my confusing was about Free Software (which overlap with Open 
Source) and Freeware (no relation with Open Source)

First when you said Free Software, I read it as Freeware (my carelessness). 
So I said it is free (I meant Freeware) and you said "No it is not 
free" (you meant Free Software)

This was the confusion. Anyway, with this way I learnt the difference 
:)
>> Reduce [free free]
== [Freeware Free-Software]
:)

Exactly, different contexts

Kaj, .... Gab pretty much nailed it.


Endo, .... Indeed, so are you saying you can't beat this go program 
every single time in just a few moves?  I seem to be able to beat 
it every single time almost instantly, which I think was Ladislav's 
point.


I'm just confirming I did not simply find a way to beat it as a sort 
of trick.  I used to design AI for games, so I tend to get around 
it pretty quickly.


If you would like I will send you a video of me plaything this game 
several times.

Of note, I still thank you for this program, it  was exactly what 
I was looking for.  Of course it would be nice if it was a little 
smarter, but it is a great program to give to begginers simply to 
understand the "rules" of the game.

Reichart: I really want to see to trick :) You can find my email 
address on Altme.

I mostly can guess next moves of the computer, but couldn't find 
a trick to win every game (Well actually I know one, after a game 
finished you can still continue to play, like 2 two players game. 
By that way you can increase your rank.. But this is nothing about 
AI ofcourse.

At the first a few games I can win immediately, but after several 
games (say 10-15 games) then I cannot win easily. After computer 
rank is 2-3 kyu I cannot win at all (as I'm a beginner Go player.)
By the way its help files are also very well to teach the rules.

After computer rank is 2-3 kyu

 the computer rank is never 2 - 3 kyu. The computer "thinks" it is 
 9 kyu, I assume. (but it is not very reliable, either) Anyway, after 
 losing some games the computer "thinks" that you are 2 - 3 kyu (again, 
 not very reliably), and takes for itself some handicap to make the 
 game even.

I'm traveling this week, but will make one for you when I settle.

Reichart: Ok thank you.

@Oldes: How have you ported Mechanarium from Flash to the iPad?

yes, but iPad2 only.

using REBOl of course

And the touchpad ?

What do you use instead of Flash?

it is Flash... or you can call it AIR... AIR SDK is using LLVM to 
convert the ActionScript bytecode to native iOS code.

http://www.adobe.com/products/air/faq/

Endo, have not forgetten, just been SUPER busy.

Ok thanks, I'm still trying to beat it but couldn't pass 2. kyu :)

I suggest you to try the GNU Go instead, on a bigger board. It is 
more fun, in my opinion.

Machinarium is noted in this significant article:http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/2011/11/11/clarifications-on-flash-player-for-mobile-browsers-the-flash-platform-and-the-future-of-flash/

http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/2011/11/11/clarifications-on-flash-player-for-mobile-browsers-the-flash-platform-and-the-future-of-flash/