World: r3wp

- No time table given, so I can't say when there will be a release. 
I can only say that we're moving forward all the time, fixing bugs, 
adding new styles.

- No DRAW fixes yet. I haven't seen Cyphre since 5th November. We 
can work around most DRAW bugs for now.

- Skin lacked a CONTAINER style to put things in. Lining up scrollers 
with text fields, lists, etc. proved to be problematic. When one 
looked OK, the other would look terrible. We had TIGHT, GROUP and 
PANEL, but none of those are useful as decorative containers. CONTAINER 
works llike the frame of a painting, and now all styles that use 
CONTAINER look almost identical and pixel perfect. It also allows 
me to build complex field styles, like a search field with icons 
or numeric field with arrows.

- MAX-SIZE: It's a combination of weighting and maximum size of a 
face. When you set MAX-SIZE, it will affect the layout of the face 
in code, even if you are nowhere near maximum size, something I would 
never expect such an attribute to do. Setting MAX-SIZE correctly 
is an annoying process of trial and error, can't be predicted and 
depends on the MAX-SIZE of other faces in the panel, which requires 
debugging and studying other styles or setting them manually with 
a lot of typing. There are also magic numbers, so sometimes you use 
a size of 4000 and other times 100000 to achieve similar results. 
This is really the only part of VID3.4 that I don't like. However: 
There are still bugs, so intended behavior may turn out to be much 
better than I think. I can't remember what VID3 uses, but I would 
guess it's a more traditional weighting model.

Why there is another style needed, to properly align elements? Why 
isn't panel and group enough?

panel is for grouping whole groups of faces with a big frame around 
it. group does the same without a frame (no draw block). tight is 
like group, except without spacing. container is like tight, but 
has a visible frame that does not have the same apperance as panel.

That sounds confusing - couldn't it be just variations of one style? 
:-)

no :-)

As for max-size, not sure if it can be usefull at all ...

it's easier to show in screenshots. hopefully I'll get the server 
up again next week.

I don't understand how group and panel could be usefull, if it can't 
precisely align elements? Why not use container all the time then?

I'll wait for screenshots.

it does precisely align them, but the draw block is not suitable 
for that.

You also often mention bug in layout. Is layout so complicated, that 
its bugs can't be fixed? :-)

they are just not fixed yet. there are many things to do.

Would adding more skilled developers help the case? E.g. Anton, Gabriele?

Already asked for both a long time ago, but neither one reacted. 
:-)

Hmm, who else's there? :-) Ashley is not much active here lately, 
and not sure who else is skilled for VID work ....

There is the matter of getting into the VID 3.4 code which would 
take a few days, before changes could be made and those changes must 
be of very high quality. I'm not sure it's of much help right now 
to speed up the process, but in longer term it would help getting 
some details right.

Thanks for the update Henrik, always good to hear about what is in 
work.

no problem

Henrik - but it would really not hurt to get VID 3.4 out for all 
interested users. It is not about VID 3.4 development itself, but 
about getting familiar with what we already have. I expect VID3.4 
being in a state, where most of concepts are already in place and 
fixed?

There are probably about half the concepts in place at this time. 
I still don't know if Carl gets a good idea and decides to do some 
changes.

Will there be any conclusion to parse REP, or was it another blog 
teaser (= without decision announcement)?

Carl is very quiet on it, so, not sure.

Henrik - missing your screenshots :-) Curious to see panel, group, 
tight and container differences ...

Yes, I know. I think it will make more sense, when I get more container 
styles done. It will be very useful in the case of a date field style, 
table style and calendar style. There was a problem in the past with 
aligning multiple styles in a nice-looking way. Container solves 
that.

what I would like to understand is, why was not it possible to be 
solved by group or panel, technically. But I'll wait, because in 
fact I don't know, what is container about. I thought, that panel 
is the container already. I would not like to find out, that the 
reason is, that the design is flawed, and hence the situation has 
to be patched by introducing yet-another-style-for-each-new-situation 
...

We should really have an alpha+gui release

No, it's not a flaw, but just something that was missing. It's quite 
simple.

I still lack access to the new server

Also of note: Making an extra style for a new situation is the way 
to go as it gives less code than trying to make a single style very 
smart. Smart styles are harder to code. This creates a lot of styles, 
so I'll have to create a style tree.

At least new VID is not as strict as Gabriele's was, where even size 
difference meant having new style.

just something that was missing

 - couldn't be panel and group fixed to work like Container? :-) What 
 is their other difference other than Container aligns, but panel 
 and group don't? :-)

Pekr, I guess you have to wait until I can give a proper explanation 
with screenshots. "Fixing" panel to work like container would be 
like "fixing" scroller to be like a slider. They are for two different 
purposes.

The Friday following thanksgiving is known as Black Friday ... would 
have been sweet to release R3 alpha/gui

we have black friday R3 for 3 or 4 years ... who knows for how long 
already ... it is almost becoming irrelevant ...

I'm not sure of Carl's decision to write a BBS now ....

So easily distracted ...

BTW, I don't think what Oldes does influences Carl ...

Have I missed something ? Isn't vBulletting or phpBBS the choice 
?

Writing an entire BBS system in Rebol ? It will take 3 months !

Someone has eaten to much on tanksgiving day.

Yeah ... I think it's crazy.  Perhaps Carl subconscioiusly fears 
failure and doesn't realy want to release alpha - so he keeps coming 
up with blocking requests like this.

Unfortunately I am beginning to see Carl as the weakest link in this 
whole process.   The last time this happened ...  Jaime went to his 
house to persuade him to release something, and he did.  Now Jaime 
is gone ....

Perhaps all the R3 contributors need to get together to formulate 
a strategy/plan .... and present it to Carl.  Otherwise we're all 
wasting our time here.

Hmm.... looks like no one agrees.  Perhaps we let this farce continue 
....

All I can do is withdraw my offer to assist

with setting up the new server and software

in protest

Graham - we can't do anything ...

No, not true.

we can refuse to be a part of the comedy of errors