World: r3wp

Pekr, just calm down, how can someone write full docs, when VID3 
is not yet finished? Can't you wait a bit more? Where's the problem? 
Don't base your assumptions on some unfinished docs, I know you're 
eager to get R3, but, please, wait until it's done.

How does the coder convey to the docs writer what to write if he 
does not know waht the code is going to do?

Pekr, we _will_ be getting back to these things you mention. it's 
just not the right time yet. There is plenty of progress, but still 
plenty to do in terms of code, where we can't just write docs out 
of thin air.

and Pekr: VID3 kicks ass. :-)

too bad the url is so easy to figure out, didn't you know it, you 
had nothing to complain about ;)

amacleod - there aparently is more things that are complete - you 
saw the mention docs are some 30% behind? And have you ever been 
in process of writing docs? I mean - in the team? Do you think that 
ppl only wait for the work to be 100% finished? Some concepts HAVE 
to be already in place. I prefer to rewrite/restylize docs instead 
of writing them in a hurry ...

Rebolek - you are far from the truth - I don't want to get R3 just 
because of sake of having it ...

I am more interested in the marketing process  - now read that - 
http://www.rebol.com/help-wanted.html... do you think that process 
should not run in parallel?

apply for the job then

There is so many other things. But we need to input. In fact - I 
don't agree with www.rebol.com world release, unless RT finds time 
to discuss other things. Because - I want R3 to be successfull, so 
I would prefer to prepare on other fronts, as I said  ....

I will apply for the job from the other side - user.r . I want to 
help that thing organised. If you would ask btiffin, I think that 
he would understand my points. My main barrier is my english. I can 
be present on internet public forums, evangelising rebol, talk to 
ppl, explain, but I can't represent RT ...

yes, please do. there will be a requirement for much more help, once 
R3 goes beta.

and as for VID3 kicking ass - I hope so, as I like my little fights 
with Bobik between VID and PythonCard, so I really hope I have some 
new fresh blood in my veins for my new round of evening tea talks 
;-)

Henrik - I am already selected user.r community representative, well, 
even if only few ppl voted, the thing was kind of strange :-)

indeed it kicks ass. a very small example:

view [progress slider attach]


slider is attached to progress and will adjust it's length automatically.

ok, let's fight a bit :-)

and you get automatic resizing thrown in for free

I am a new programmer - how it connects? I want to have some imagination 
about it. btw - that was the most difficult part of VID vs View. 
At least when I taught Bobik VID. Once you needed to go deeper, non 
skilled View guru would get lost ...

Sounds great

Henrik - I saw some weird arithmetic expressions for attach. Just 
one question - does it allow named variables instead of integers?

there's a lot more interconnection between words in VID now.

yes, it did that from the start, but the other thing is much easier, 
when you have many attachments to do.

I remember romano paolo tenca's 'attach, but it was resizing related. 
Ach, it was 'anchor ....

What if you dynamically insert new element into layout? Will it reattach 
itself? :-)

I'm not sure. I haven't tried it.

Petr, then you should not complain about VID, but about the docs. 
Problem is, we don't have anyone to write them. Brian is doing his 
best, but I don't expect him to be able to just do *everything* (user.r, 
testing, writing docs...)

Maybe I could help with docs, but not sure if I would be able to 
understand new VID to that extent, to be able to write one ...

My intention is to have more "explanatory" kind of docs, like in 
book, not just reference. http://www.rebol.com/docs/view-system.html
is good one for e.g.

i agree with you actually, but do you really have the time to write 
them? if so, i'm sure Carl would welcome you. :)

(btw i started doing easy-vid3 using easy-vid text as reference to 
make it "similar" in how it reads etc. but i don't have enough time.)

re free time. Not sure about the free time, but I don't want to sound 
like allibist. I might try. However - not in the case if you think 
that it is my method of how to get R3, as it is not the case :-)

you see, i don't think anyone has problems with you getting r3, we 
only have problems with you complaining too much about it - considering 
how much you do by just having looked a bit at the docs ;)

but, it's Carl making decisions - maybe you can talk to him directly.

i will tell him that you volunteered for the docs, if you really 
want to do that. (then you'll be the one to get complains for once 
;)

is btiffin there doing docs work?

yes.

been working on the vid docs for a few days already.

that's why i'm sure they'll improve a lot.

but i'm also sure he will need a lot of help.

My original proposition was to create alpha+ group, where everybody 
from here could get access to R3. That group would be isolated to 
not have access to Alpha group. Maybe only to see Alpha group Altme 
transcripts. Then you or someone else would visit Alpha+ altme, where 
would be one special channel for you, with summary prepared. That 
way you could prevent main alpha group from being flooded, yet you 
would be able to get some new bug reports ...

I think some ppl here are eager to get early R3 access ...

if Brian agrees on me to help him with Docs, I will accept ...

ok, so talk with brian first. then let me know and i'll talk with 
carl.

ok

I'm more than ok with sharing.  :)  It is part of the nature of wiki 
work...anything written can be edited  by anybody, anytime, no questions 
(other than password) asked.  If it leads to more information, I'm 
all for it.

Petr;  One word of caution.  In a support role; getting invited to 
the REBOL 3 kitchen, efforts have to be made to not bother the cooks. 
 It's hard, (really hard) but trust the chefs.  :)

I just re-read that post.  It's not hard to trust the chefs...it's 
hard not to bug them.

I just re-read the re-read.  It's hard not to 'want to' bug them.

Someday I'll learn how to type what I'm thinking...maybe by thinking 
what I'm typing.

Brian - I exactly understand what you mean. The bad thing is, that 
when you feel you have something to say to the design itself, you 
can't, or you don't want to, to not spoil the chefs. But - I will 
write docs only to desing I have 100% trust into. So far I have some 
worries. Those are more philosophical ones. E.g. worst part I read 
so far was 'tight command, which imo has bad influence on how VID 
code "feels". So - at first run, I will try to read most past discussions 
and try to understand new design philosophy. There surely are differences 
to VID2, mostly that styles seem to be organised in groups (columns). 
I can't e.g. see VID2 keywords like 'at, 'across, 'below, 'return, 
etc. - so, how I said - I first need to study the design. Then I 
will have some questions. 


I will ask those questions to Gabriele privately, to not flood the 
group, and because he is master designer. I think that guys managed 
to create strange atmosphere here. Since when is the design a closed 
effort to those who are interested in the design process? I don't 
remember it happening even with View 1.0 - ally mailing list. Everybody 
interested could reply at least on mailing list - no wait and see 
mode. That is exactly why I asked for the design docs first, althought 
I understand Gabriele's point of rather coding first. But the aproach 
of "watch, but don't spoil" excludes others from the design.


So once again - if I find new design unpleasant to use, difficult 
to use and explain in the docs, I may also departure from the effort.

Petr, well, there must be one designer. since we already had like 
7 years of feedback on the design of vid, i'm not really sure much 
more is necessary, but we're always listening for comments. your 
problem is that you always make assumptions and then complain based 
on your assumptions. please stick to facts. the fact is, that i've 
been in the rebol community since 1999, and I have implemented many 
VID apps. I read the ML, I read here every day, I read reboltalk.com, 
I read every ticket in RAMBO. i'm not really sure you know what vid 
should be that much better than me or anyone else here.