World: r3wp

And I don't mean too smart in a bad way.  The computer IQ in this 
forum is off the scale

which is why Carl is right.

since Carl want's to retain control over the view .

just asking people about what they want obviously collides... everyone 
has different needs and POV.

I've always thought that everyone is *right* by default.

there is not team, there was no team. Team needs rules. To set rules 
you have to adhere. If you break the rules, you should be dismissed 
from team after some time. If ppl do adhere to rules, team has its 
sense ...

so its hard to merge the ideas, obviously.

Pekr, that is what I am saying.

but who choses the rules, who is right, who is wrong... bla bla bla.... 
you can end up with the same wars within anyways.

With Rebol, things are often aproached in non-organised, jumpy kind 
of way ... few questions, few months break, some doc, few months 
break, then release, which is even more different to what was agreed 
upon :-) just exagerrating, but you get the idea ...

why is why I thouhgt a more open, long term dev cycle would have 
been better.

Maxim - rules of the team ... ideas have no rules ;-)

people have ideas... let them prove them, if you will.

Gabriele should form rules, because he has most of the info:

Formal rules soon to be announced.  Membership voluntary of course. 
 Free flowing

'individual' code is also very valuable, but the Assembly vote is 
final in Robert's Rules
of Order.

the best things will stand out, IMHO, and ususally, there is a way 
to make them cooperative.

- guys, thing is as follows - Carl want's to release VID asap ... 
don't ask why, don't ask for the change ... ok, clear enough ... 
I will do prototype ... I need this or that from you ... I have the 
right to have final go. clear enough ...

liquid was implement in such a fashion... basically I took 3 engines 
and merged them.  each one was incompatible, but had great indivual 
traits which stood out...  so a bit of tought allowed me to merge 
about 120kb of code into 20k of code, and in all, it acutally does 
more than the 3 did own their own.

set the rules, we will follow. If you don't set them in stone, ppl 
will ask, if it can be done in other way, maybe a better way, that 
is natural, as brian said - we have smart ppl here.

liquid took a long to mature, but the main reason was that I'm doing 
it on my pass time.

And when I say that...it is only the "user community" assembly.  
Design is a seperate

issue.  The REBOL User group will only let us clear the noise down 
to a point form
executive summary...

so... where has this discussion got us?

nowhere? well, I will sum up ...

I vote to see code.   :)

I see a lot of things, but the question can be looked at differently... 
what did you really ask for?

1. publish something 2. let us comment it 3. implement comments 4. 
all of that before r3 release ;)

nowhere - that would prove Carl right :P

As I can see it, we follow related, but slightly different topics 
... first one is actual VID implementation and the way of project 
coordination, the second one is more general - setting communication 
channels with RT sooner than later, because if new ppl come, we will 
sink under once again ...

where you expecting a decision on something?  that was not really 
asked?

When I set up the revault group, I was not expecting an "answer" 
I was polling oppinion.

imagine thousands of new users asking questions towards rebol and 
its direction and desinger not being available ... as for me, I want 
to work closely with rebol evangelist person ...

the same contradiction than what is occuring here happened, but I 
got insight, and the final result allowed me to have a clear picture 
of what to propose to Carl.

let's prepare for division of our roles ....

and I am pretty sure the final will appeal to most who are working 
on module like api code.

Let the snowball start rolling down the hill...and we can either 
get bowled over or direct

it.  That may be our part.  Again I'm coming solely from a desire 
to be an 'end-user'.

my only wish for actual implementation team is - please don't release 
official R3, unless some of top community programmes could see the 
result. Anton even expressed his wish to be able to "influence" View 
kernel design things ... those are closed altogether ...

It seems to me that the main concern is that some programmers have 
been working on projects for several years that they cannot finish 
unless they are allowed to hook more directly into the guts of view. 
They are concerned that all the time they have put into their projects 
might go down the tube. Does that sum up what you guys are saying?

Louis - yes, and - some of guys are for years begging for suggestions 
in certain areas, not being sure those are being heard and implemented.

4 - 6 months ago I asked in one blog reaction, Carl to blog about 
the plan towards View itself. IIRC it was supposed to come, and that's 
it. Some things were not decided even at the time of devcon (e.g. 
if draw dialect will merge with effect one). View kernel development 
seems to be implemented with no certain vision - we just know we 
wanted richtext, and view being less resource hungry and faster in 
blitting :-)

Lets change that aspect then Pekr.  A formal group, with the associated 
sense of

authority...that may or may not be ignored, but it'll be 'authoritative' 
and hopefully

less ignorable.  But for Gabrieles immediate need...I say let the 
snowball roll  :)

My main general concern for the future - please improve the communication. 
Blog is fine, but one way channel - users ---> RT ...

Brian - I understand your motive for such group. I even understand, 
that it could work, but - there is one thing needed for sure - RT 
to respect such body. And to actually respect it for more than few 
months :-)

I am just not sure, if ppl here are prepared to respect it :-) It 
seems to me, that with Rebol, simple things are born faster than 
we brainstorm them :-)

what did this bring you?

1) I clearly feel (in most of people who post) that there is a sense 
of uselessness of the community that needs to be addressed.  I am 
not talking about specifics.  just a general sense of being ignored. 
  for my part, I expect it so am not bitter.  I just hope for the 
best, in any case I can already just use gobs and ignore view3, I 
have my engine pretty much finalised and working within an app.


2) communication FROM RT is insufficient.  having you as an official 
RT person will most probably change that, cause I regard you highly 
in your communication talents.  you genuinely want discussion  :-)


3) more specifically, people do not ONLY expect/want a PITS model 
for the gui,  

4) people want more access to internal without fighting,  


5) it seems to me that the community is not expecting a quick release 
of VID and some have expressed that they'd rather wait a bit for 
it than get something too simple.


6) there seems to be disapointment that RT will be feeding us the 
solution, I think after devcon I feel that a few people would have 
tought it would have been a bit more community driven, but then, 
that could be more my skewed vision.

That would have to be determined.  I say it's worth a shot.  It can't 
be any less 

effective than what we have today.  None of us can dicate to RT, 
just hope and
wish and dream, and maybe report (back and forth)  :)

But because of that nature, Rebol lived in the PITS area .... we 
are quickly done with ideas :-) That is fine ... but that is the 
paradox too - it lead us to situation, when we are not used to work 
on longer term things ... maybe the only one being rebol.org group, 
rebgui, and now rebolweek group - kudoz to those ppl.

I am often fascinated at how people forget about steel  :-)   ... 
its been there for what 5 years, and has steadily improved.  but 
just like RT I am one man army, so community is deficient  :-(

so I understand it too.

And I truly believe we are pretty lucky.  The blog may seem a little 
one-way, but Carl

does respond.  And though maybe not verbalized, those tidbits probably 
are having

an influence.  At least that's the impression I've been getting over 
the last few months of

my reinvolvement in the field...and it seems to be getting better 
everyday.  And I've 

discovered that unless you put in four hours a day...the amount of 
information generated
is impossible to keep up with.  :)

brian, have you applied to be the evangelist?