World: r3wp

.... hopefully it is an interim state, a preparation for GUI client. 
New chat system starts to turn being interesting - threaded discussions, 
user ranking, tagging, searches, secure, movement of msgs/headings 
(reorganisation), recently files sharing is being worked on. The 
long term plan is to replace Altme ... with better Altme :-)

Bugs are reported using Curecode.

Peter, we also have to remember that most immediate bugs are probably 
found and that the database has already been up for 18 months, so 
maybe bug reports will go up eventually, but hopefully not. :-) I 
would rather see a way to give positive feedback. That is probably 
a better indicator for the number of active users of R3.

Also, the next step toward attracting more users should be graphical 
demos, as it's the first question I get, when I present R3 to friends. 
Now that you have R3, it's possible for you to write them. :-)

PeterWood: Hi. As a new user I would like to report any problem, 
but for the moment I just saw one bug that as already been reported.

Pekr, about the other worlds being dead: It seems it's going according 
to Carls plan with killing both worlds in favor of Rebdev, so I kinda 
hope it stays that way. I hate jumping back and forth between chat 
systems.

yes, but with MS console crap, it is really a pain to use the chat, 
as you can't increase number of columns. I hope some primitive GUI 
comes soon ...

yes, I hope so too.

kib2, if there were a way to give positive feedback about things 
you really like in R3, would you do it?

Henrik - new RebDev chat (and more) systems gets under your skin. 
I start to like the system, otoh, as usual, when thinking in more 
abstract way, I think that we are creating certain app type, but 
so far I can't see it being base of something like Atlissimo. Altme 
+, maybe, but not something which was supposed to replace Altme + 
IOS. It is interesting, how we don't push the coolest system we had 
(IOS) further. 


With IOS, you had secure communication framework, along with app 
handlers, which allowed you to deploy anything. In IOS, something 
like RebDev (or its particular features), would be just - one of 
many possible apps, complete with separated usergroup areas, if we 
wished for ....

Henrik: for sure!

Pekr, I have only very limited experience with IOS from about 5 years 
ago, but I liked the aspect of miniapps with it. Perhaps this is 
why Carl is so fixated on mini-apps or reblets. I certainly hope 
we'll be able to build a new IOS for R3.

kib2: I thought so. :-) maybe it will be possible through the chat 
system.

As far as I've seen, there's currently no way to run a GUI script 
with R3 alpha. Am I wrong ?

kib2: that fooled me first, but type "load-gui" and you have the 
GUI system available to you.

Henrik: then I can "do %..." ?

yes, or view [button "boo!"]

Thas is what I think too. When I do compare functions of RebDev - 
there is already plenty of commands. IOS was one lever more abstracted. 
Upon IOS you could build something like RebDev, DevBase, Chat, Filesharing 
etc. We will see, I posted question to Carl :-)

Henrik: works fine ! thanks, that's now easier to post bug reports!

kib2: about the GUI system, it is very far from done, so don't be 
too disappointed. Also we have a private bug list for the GUI alone.

Henrik: I can easily understand that, but you've done a wonderful 
job, really.

Henrik - hopefully we are close to being back to GUI soon ...

Primary issues with the GUI:


- Layout resizing can result in too much horizontal stretching and 
too little vertical stretching.
- Style list is very incomplete.
- Keyboard navigation is very sparse.
- No rich text editing.
- Skin will become more esthetically pleasing later.

- Some nasty bugs in the low level graphics engine, not yet solved.

What is not likely to change:


- The design of the system feels very solid. Every time a change 
or addition is made, it's 5-10 lines of code.
- Style creation process, so feel free to make your own styles.

What is likely to change:


- The layout engine gets new features now and then to simplify the 
dialect.
- Popups, dialogs.

Pekr, I want to do a code audit, but I'm thinking now whether I should 
do that in the open to speed things up a little. I'm not sure.

I have to go working. See you !

Pekr, I hate the new chat system.  I understand it completely but 
find it cumbersome to use and difficult in reading.

The GUI demo needs to be made smaller (vertical space)

I hope that the mezzanines are pulled from the main distribution 
and made as a separate module.  I don't care for the mezz stacking 
and it only contributed to bloating.  I would rather build my own 
mezzanines for purposes or be able to choose from a module containing 
predefined ones.

Paul, that is the plan. The old monolithic REBOL will go away once 
the module system is up and running. There are already functions 
flagged for moving into non-default modules - especially ones that 
have limited use or too much overhead.


But remember that we add these mezzanines so that we can use them, 
and many are just cleaned-up versions of code that is used in the 
GUI, the other mezzanines, the intrinsics, etc. We are trying to 
keep things as efficient as possible so that the code that is loaded 
by default is minimal. Still, you will have to realize that REBOL 
is partly written in REBOL so you can't get rid of everything.

Some of the new code is there to get rid of common bugs in code that 
all REBOL programmers write, or to make efficient versions of functions 
that are done over and over again, poorly. Other functions are being 
written to figure out where R3 needs some improvement, though they 
will be usefl on their own (like REWORD).

We'll reorganize the functions when we have the facilities to organize 
stuff (modules). No worries.

Brian, I'm critical of how Carl and the dev team are handling things 
at this point.  At least from my perspective this project is being 
managed poorly.  The rollout to the new developers to test and provide 
feedback is not being equipped with a "hit the ground running" gameplan. 
 In order for anyone to know what a function is they must source 
it and they have no access to examples.  Sure we can eventually figure 
out how the code works but that comes at a cost to each of the new 
contributors in time and energy when this could have been facilitated 
by others of the reb dev team.  Regarding, the mezz functions, I'm 
glad to here they won't be built inside the main bin and includes 
as modules.  That is good news.  Regarding, chat, Carl needs to run, 
not walk, away from using console for chat.  The more that console 
chat is used the more concerned I get a feeling that R3 is a mirror 
of that same level of usability which is not a good impresion.

The advantage to the current chat is the messages in it, not the 
UI. Those messages are still going to be there when the GUI client 
is in use, and we needed something in place to get the information 
out there and managed (AltMe wasn't good enough at management). However, 
you have once again figred ot the plan: Carl intends to run, not 
walk, away from using console for chat.

I hope so Brian,  I don't want to be discouraging to others about 
R3 based on these observations because I know that objectively its 
a critical analysis in the midst of its evolution which is never 
a guage of what will be the final product.

I just think more care needs to taken to expedite those things I 
mentioned.

As for the project management, with the limited number of developers 
the self-organizing model has been working so far. We will manage 
to organize more developers when we get more developers. Which the 
release has not brought us yet - only users and testers (both appreciated).

We need help. There is only so much Carl and Henrik can do, and I 
am busy with work right now so I can do even less. I have seen people 
putting in bug tickets for changes to the wiki - when they could 
easily make these changes themselves. It's frustrating.

You need to ignore the UI of chat for now, because the important 
problem being worked on now is getting the source file database integrated 
so developers can see that source you were requesting. Then we will 
have more developers (in theory) and we can get the GUI working well 
enough to write the GUI chat client you also requested. Which shouldn't 
be that hard - all of the tough stuff is either handled by the chat 
infrastructure (which is mostly there now) or the GUI infrastructure.

If you want to help now I can get you an account on the current DevBase 
- be warned that the GUI is not great yet (because it's R2).

BrianH, I would love to help out where I can.

just want to express my oppinion that I am happy of the core things 
beeing in focus (language, runtime, core libs (tcp...)...) not the 
"addons" like gui

I sort of agree, but most of the core bugs were discovered and fixed 
during the course of writing the "addons" like the GUI or non-core 
mezzanine functions. Most of the core language enhancements came 
from the GUI work too. I expect the work on higher-level port schemes 
will help debug the low-level port code. You need to write the high-level 
stuff to help refine the low-level stuff.

I found two bugs, one issue and a potential language enhancement, 
all about the map! type, all during the writing of one function (REWORD) 
that many people may not use - it might be one of those functions 
put in a module that isn't loaded by default. Still, time well spent 
if it makes map! better for all of us.

most of the core bugs were discovered and fixed during the course 
of writing the 

addons" like the GUI or non-core mezzanine functions" yes, I fully 
agree with this and understand that higher level code tests and helps 
design (reiterate) the low level that it's build upon...

but I still take decision to make chat in CLI first and not focus 
on GUI etc too quickly very highly. Because having a good core on 
which gui (or many gui-s) and all things are built seems 100x more 
important than having *something to show* .. a nice gui on a patched 
core... I appreciate the priorities and focus, and this tells me 
that I can rely on R3 being good.

You caught onto a good principle there, Janko. We are really focused 
on the core now with chat. Admittedly, it is the core of chat rather 
than the core of R3 but the principle is the same: We need the communications 
infrastructure there so we can communicate now, and that will make 
it easier to make it pretty later :)

Don't worry, we are also focused on the core of R3 :)

R3 plan for February - http://www.rebol.com/article/0389.html

very good summary!

I ported my CMS to R3