World: r3wp

what is more easier and productiv (sorry but if you spent 3 weeks 
to draw the logo of your website in DrawAGG commands you will be 
fired and that's all) Making a description of your image in pure 
draw dialect ? Making it in SVG using a SVG Drawer editor then integer 
it to a VID renderer to have the snapshot ?  And then if your boss 
or client found that the produced graphic doesn't complity to his 
thought how difficult would it be to modify it in AGG code (pure 
texte no graphical editor) in SVG (there you have an editor and you 
can retake the file and then modify it very easyly ) or in bitmap 
once produced it's very hard to modify (a part if you save it into 
an intermediate format ? )

SVG  is a step In my mind to exploite AGG ready code we have no tools 
and we have too less gurus to make a relevent tool to improve production 
...

that is all fine. I just tried point out, how it could end-up. You 
may end-up using rebol less and less, as you start with SVG, you 
will use Flash, html, java-script, etc. :-)

our goal is SVG and rebol.  Saying hey guys look how easy is to integer 
to a rebol VID based software SVG graphics of all kind to make your 
ui or enlight it if you need it  is benefic for rebol

it's an atract point ...

OK, agreed, I see your point ...

if you say guys you hav a powerfull Sclar and Vectorial dialect in 
rebol but you have to take you text editor to compose you graphics 
those guys will trash out out the window ... You can expect a guy 
the use all along the day photoshop illustratior, Wave etc to open 
a text editor there is no way !!! Like to expect that a 3D modeler 
will let apart his grpahical environement and use a taxte editor 
to make his 3D scene and animation usin yafray or povRAY... Script 
3D renderer are far away from in realtime 3D workbench (with graphical 
UI) but what want a 3D worker ??? Take 3 weeks to write a scene then 
wait three weeks to have the rendering then make the constatation 
that the result is not exactly what he wants and restart for 2 weeks 
of work and 3 weeks of generation ? Or edit his scene into a graphical 
UI that allow him to moselise and renderise his work in a bench of 
seconds ?

for example blender ... you make your scene into the grpahical ui 
you pre render the scene or the animation will the built in renderer 
then if it's good you start a heavy quality rendering using yaffray 
and from that point you will have to wait somme days until having 
the result... But in all case you are sure that the result will feet 
to your needs ;)

I'm a graphic former ...  So I know very well the moods of infographis 
2D / 3D ( in plus I'm a good coder   ... )

I study 4 years coding , system and multimedia (sound grpahics 2D 
/ 3D) because I follow a game realiser formation ;)

so SVG is a medium no a goal ...SVG alone is nothing else than text 
...

like POV script and YAFRAY scripts :)

good to know - so once RT decides they will finally produce Rebol/Media, 
you can help :-) View is still somehow underpowered for anything 
like game development - very slow in blitting, no nice movements 
on screen etc. :-)

you need a renderer and that's here whrer we need REBOL  to set up 
animation to set up the global UI

Pekr sure I milite since 3 years to have a complete multimedia solution 
in rebol ... AGG for me is a good step forward in this way

for example is it better to provide for sound acces to the sound 
interface or giving accept to a sound format ... Actually  REBOL 
is close because we can only use wav we have no control upon the 
sound interface ... With the basement control you can add easyly 
what ever sound format you want ...

view plug-ins should change it a bit, as some things needing speed 
could help a bit, although I fear View would have to be recoded. 
I do remember Dave Haynie (dunno if you know Amiga :-), he once told 
me (in some interview), that they coded they own "small os" under 
Windows, when they wanted to get good base for Scala Multimedia ...

I also wonder if Rebol would have to use DirectX then, but if so, 
I am full after that - there is probably no single installation of 
Windows not having DirectX installed ...

but how to stay cross platform ...

20 years ago Wav and Midi format where the only ones now in day you 
have more than 10 sound encoding format ....  An alternative could 
be to traslate systematically the what ever encoded sound file to 
a WAV one and then play it but franckly do you thing people that 
are using a jukebox software (like winamp for example) will accept 
1) to wait 5 minutes for theire files to be translated then have 
a poor audio quality ???

oh, we ar in AGG group, sorry, off-topic ...

we planned on fmod library integration :-)

not at all that's a degretion but we are in the topic this example 
show that the medium is not the media ;)

people need standards and known thing if you say to them hey we have 
a very good sound sytem but you need to write a script to make your 
sound somme freaks will be happy, the majority of the people  will 
be very upset ...

Pekr imagine you compose you graphics with inkscape (SVG editor very 
complete and free) then you set your animation process with AGG and 
then you put it online in your site. People come along in you web 
site make the click on the link to you new file then rebol/view plugin 
launch and run you SVG graphics with you AGG animation. In front 
of that you have flash sure but flash is made by a specialised in 
the grpahic industry company and not by a generic company ;)

and flash is not stand alone ;)

you can offer the animation to people or make off line version of 
your work

So sure the ideal would be to have a complete REBOL dedicated IDE 
that exploit to it's maximum all the possibility of rebol ...

like the equivalent for the macromedia flash.

The need for a good IDE has been high on my "thought list" these 
days.

With more "companies" using REBOL, the need for better tools goes 
up.

means high better editor too?

better -< faster

Yes - probably IDE starts with better editor.

yes, basic screen designer. Sometimes properly laying-out your screen 
takes you more time than to code support stuff :-)

Although, with the bug fixes in View, I use that editor a lot more 
than I used too. :)

Yes, GUI work for apps often takes me 75% of my time -- so anything 
to reduce that helps.

Agreed, that agg does good things to refrsh-speed :)

CArl franckly I use all the day long Crimson Editor and it's suffisant 
... but sure an IDE that allow people to manage code / AGG graphics 
animation (a little bit like flash studio ) would be top ...

(In other words, 75% of the app development time.)

I use CE as well, but often switch to use View editor to edit ftp 
files

But would need better support for "macros". such that the gui-designer 
can directly interact with the code.

What I like about view editor is:  editor system/options, editor 
http://www.rebol.net, etc. ;)

CArl it depend how shaped you want the UI ...  people in general 
want to pass the less time possible over the UI ...

Carl, please exlain the 75% app development time.

I think the internal editor has some potential: Multiple docs for 
example could that be easily implemented?

yes, thats cool :)

ie. how exactly is that 75% app time being spent?

do oyu think it is possible to add source-position to values? for 
the ide-version?

Graham: getting GUIs to work perfectly, when they include a lot of 
special features and scrolling, etc, takes too much time.