World: r3wp

Pekr: the SVG Demo is just a quick and dirty prototype. I'm just 
going to get it to the stage where it can display simple SVG icons 
(for RebGUI). If someone else wants to write an SVG viewer that is 
fully SVG 1.1 (with 1.2 around the corner) compatible then good luck 
... I'm *not* going to be doing that! ;)


yeksoon: see above comments. I'm tweaking the SVG Demo code on an 
SVG icon by icon basis. As long as it works for the icons I use (or 
intend to use) I'm happy - I don't guarantee the code will work with 
anything other than the specific SVG files I have tested it on.


Cyphre: SVG is such a "flexible" standard isn't it? :) One question; 
how did you map SVG "path d" commands (e.g. <path style=... d="M 
10 10 C 20 20 ... z") where there is no "z" command to close the 
"shape" (i.e. the AGG shape command closes by default).


shadwolf: Having our own SVG icons is a good idea as we don't have 
to worry about licence / distribution issues and we can tweak the 
generation to make it as AGG compatible as possible. To do that we 
need to settle on *one* tool so as we generate consistent SVG code, 
and we should generate SVG that uses a single unit of measure, preferably 
pixels, as it's a real pain trying to handle multiple units of measure 
within the same file. I'll continue this discussion in the RebGUI 
group.

Ashley: Exactly! I love the "SVG flexibility" especially when writing 
parser for it :-) Regarding closing the shape. We haven't seen so 
far any SVG path without Z/z at the end so that's why we decided 
to let the patch closed automatically by default. Maybe we should 
add some keyword to leave shape opened?

Yes please! A large number of the SVG icons I looked at rely on this.

add a move to the end to keep the shape open

want it be simploer and speeder to adapt our parse / rendering engine 
to a well know rock stable editor I propose inkScape. I yet provide 
two reference files made with inkScape.

I think trying to arrive to the level to inkscape in our own SVG 
DRAW MAKER software will take more than one year to redone it with 
REBOL... So to avoid loss of time we can yet work on the engine for 
rebgui feeting to InkScape SVG format then we can start working to 
our own SVG DRAW MAKER made in full REBOL... One thing that afraid 
me a little is the flexibility of the SVG format as it can be very 
different how to support any SVG file comming from any EDITOR ? For 
me SVG appears to me to be close to what we done with MakeDoc format. 
Today we have many MD like format all very good but to make a Viewer 
in rebol that support them all it wil be very very difficult.

Remember these days as the beginning of the end of rebol UI :-) Instead 
of beautifull dialects we will use junk as can be seen in .svg files 
:-)

junk ?

why junk ?

do you find anything XML being readable, when compared to rebol dialects?

Pekr no but draw//AGG  code for a sharpe and complicated rendering 
draw neither ? :)

take my file fraisier.jpg and draw it the same translating it to 
VID Draw AGG dialect you will see that it's  afull too (take left 
space i'm agree ...)

in all cases SVG in rEBOL/View is only a common base to allow lot 
of reuse of this format you have 20  draw/AGG guru around the world 
and 200 .000 SVG drawers that use WebBRowser Plugins and SVG EDITOR 
like photoshop, the gimp or InkScape ...

... Adding SVG support is a feature un plus you have to keep in mind 
that the rendering is done in Draw ... As we don't have the time, 
the volunty etc to make an Hight LEVEL graphic draw sofware that 
instead of outputing SVG output ready to show AGG code ...

but i'm agree betwin SVG and AGG I would prefer an AGG draw maker 
tool ... And the good thing would be that this king of editor outputs 
SVG, DRAW/AGG and bitmap format as well with out any change or loos

I can understand that, but I think that that way eventually View 
will fade and die slowly, with dialects like Flash dialect, SVG dialect. 
You will teach ppl SVG, Flash, not Rebol and maybe you will find 
out, that you eventually don't need Rebol at all ...

I want proper plug-in, and View apps in browser. Look at Oldes - 
another app where rebol is used for ann app server only, not front-end 
http://box.lebeda.ws/~hmm/

as a deployment, the aproach of utilising SVG or links to whatever 
libraries is a good thing to have, I just hope it will not over-grow 
us and we will not find ourselves using other tools and environments 
using more than rebol ;-)

SVG is a Vectorial description for graphic content

flash can do that too povray yafray and lot of script based application 
can do that too with planty a row of quality level

but whant can do rebol is among all of that... You can make vertorial 
grpahics animation and build it into a stand alone software what 
is flash without a webbrowsr with the flash plugin in it ???

not whant  but what sorry ;)

REBOL  in my opinion and Draw AGG are more a joint betwin all existing 
so this ensure that people will still be using it

what is more easier and productiv (sorry but if you spent 3 weeks 
to draw the logo of your website in DrawAGG commands you will be 
fired and that's all) Making a description of your image in pure 
draw dialect ? Making it in SVG using a SVG Drawer editor then integer 
it to a VID renderer to have the snapshot ?  And then if your boss 
or client found that the produced graphic doesn't complity to his 
thought how difficult would it be to modify it in AGG code (pure 
texte no graphical editor) in SVG (there you have an editor and you 
can retake the file and then modify it very easyly ) or in bitmap 
once produced it's very hard to modify (a part if you save it into 
an intermediate format ? )

SVG  is a step In my mind to exploite AGG ready code we have no tools 
and we have too less gurus to make a relevent tool to improve production 
...

that is all fine. I just tried point out, how it could end-up. You 
may end-up using rebol less and less, as you start with SVG, you 
will use Flash, html, java-script, etc. :-)

our goal is SVG and rebol.  Saying hey guys look how easy is to integer 
to a rebol VID based software SVG graphics of all kind to make your 
ui or enlight it if you need it  is benefic for rebol

it's an atract point ...

OK, agreed, I see your point ...

if you say guys you hav a powerfull Sclar and Vectorial dialect in 
rebol but you have to take you text editor to compose you graphics 
those guys will trash out out the window ... You can expect a guy 
the use all along the day photoshop illustratior, Wave etc to open 
a text editor there is no way !!! Like to expect that a 3D modeler 
will let apart his grpahical environement and use a taxte editor 
to make his 3D scene and animation usin yafray or povRAY... Script 
3D renderer are far away from in realtime 3D workbench (with graphical 
UI) but what want a 3D worker ??? Take 3 weeks to write a scene then 
wait three weeks to have the rendering then make the constatation 
that the result is not exactly what he wants and restart for 2 weeks 
of work and 3 weeks of generation ? Or edit his scene into a graphical 
UI that allow him to moselise and renderise his work in a bench of 
seconds ?

for example blender ... you make your scene into the grpahical ui 
you pre render the scene or the animation will the built in renderer 
then if it's good you start a heavy quality rendering using yaffray 
and from that point you will have to wait somme days until having 
the result... But in all case you are sure that the result will feet 
to your needs ;)

I'm a graphic former ...  So I know very well the moods of infographis 
2D / 3D ( in plus I'm a good coder   ... )

I study 4 years coding , system and multimedia (sound grpahics 2D 
/ 3D) because I follow a game realiser formation ;)

so SVG is a medium no a goal ...SVG alone is nothing else than text 
...

like POV script and YAFRAY scripts :)

good to know - so once RT decides they will finally produce Rebol/Media, 
you can help :-) View is still somehow underpowered for anything 
like game development - very slow in blitting, no nice movements 
on screen etc. :-)

you need a renderer and that's here whrer we need REBOL  to set up 
animation to set up the global UI

Pekr sure I milite since 3 years to have a complete multimedia solution 
in rebol ... AGG for me is a good step forward in this way

for example is it better to provide for sound acces to the sound 
interface or giving accept to a sound format ... Actually  REBOL 
is close because we can only use wav we have no control upon the 
sound interface ... With the basement control you can add easyly 
what ever sound format you want ...

view plug-ins should change it a bit, as some things needing speed 
could help a bit, although I fear View would have to be recoded. 
I do remember Dave Haynie (dunno if you know Amiga :-), he once told 
me (in some interview), that they coded they own "small os" under 
Windows, when they wanted to get good base for Scala Multimedia ...

I also wonder if Rebol would have to use DirectX then, but if so, 
I am full after that - there is probably no single installation of 
Windows not having DirectX installed ...

but how to stay cross platform ...

20 years ago Wav and Midi format where the only ones now in day you 
have more than 10 sound encoding format ....  An alternative could 
be to traslate systematically the what ever encoded sound file to 
a WAV one and then play it but franckly do you thing people that 
are using a jukebox software (like winamp for example) will accept 
1) to wait 5 minutes for theire files to be translated then have 
a poor audio quality ???

oh, we ar in AGG group, sorry, off-topic ...

we planned on fmod library integration :-)

not at all that's a degretion but we are in the topic this example 
show that the medium is not the media ;)

people need standards and known thing if you say to them hey we have 
a very good sound sytem but you need to write a script to make your 
sound somme freaks will be happy, the majority of the people  will 
be very upset ...

Pekr imagine you compose you graphics with inkscape (SVG editor very 
complete and free) then you set your animation process with AGG and 
then you put it online in your site. People come along in you web 
site make the click on the link to you new file then rebol/view plugin 
launch and run you SVG graphics with you AGG animation. In front 
of that you have flash sure but flash is made by a specialised in 
the grpahic industry company and not by a generic company ;)

and flash is not stand alone ;)

you can offer the animation to people or make off line version of 
your work