World: r3wp

It is amazing how we Open Source can divide people. There is gray 
all over the place and this is not a black and white issue. I think 
this is not about the armies of developers, or the quality, but about 
the ability to move fwd and construct on the disclosure of code. 
For as much bad applications there are in Open Source, there are 
good ones, OpenBSD, GCC, Postgress, and the one Rebol incorporated 
AGG.

Brian, exactly. The fact that MS still dominates the world of OS 
and Apps when there is so much OSS is a very good example.

I would never have thought that we would still be here. And it is 
disappointing to watch Europe and Asia now fall in step with USA 
on total MS adoption.

If you want a really good example, check this one out. Abiword.

I thought it was a great work at first, because people would not 
need to buy Word anymore. But, the more you use it, the more problems 
you have.

I had my son use it at college, but he had so many problems with 
it and the way it printed, that he had to stop. I've had that same 
experience with it.

So I would not say that open source model is bad or better that the 
proprietary model when producing quality applications. They are just 
models. The advantage of Open Source is that some day in the future 
anybody digging on an scavation in america will find an OpenBSD or 
Linuxe Source CD and my be able to learn from that src code. Because 
there is a mass of distribution of this CDs and it is available wideley, 
I think people will avoid reinventing the wheel. Which usually happens 
when a proprietary project go bust, and the only ramains are in tapes 
in a vault where nobody knows the *pearls* that it contatins.

The core of the problem is that OSS people write their software, 
then they move on. After all, they cannot spend all their time on 
it, because they need to feed themselves.

Not everyone moves on of course.

Jaime, however, the issue is single-to-noise.

So many times I've thought: ah, let me go look at some open source 
to learn how they solve the problem!

I understand but some signal is better than no signal.

And the code is so horrible and disoranized, that what should be 
done in 2 pages spans 5 modules of source code!

Thats the reason some projects flourish and others die, or lag behind. 
AGG vs Cairo.

So, it has been for me extremely rare to find it educationally useful. 
However, there are the gems, and things like AGG are shining examples. 
I wil grant you that. (But then, I do not try to understand AGG, 
I just accept it for a masterpiece that it is.)

I think the community around some of the projects is equally important, 
and also if the main person who is pushing it is willing to keep 
making it shine.

As I said is not black or white. I think for me is more about freedom 
of information, than process. I can not learn much of a black box. 
With the scientific method I can describe the balck box, but not 
necesarily reconstruct it.

So black boxes are easier to comprehend and reproduce than others, 
but does it make sense to waste time when information can be free.

On the other hand I find that keep information close makes for very 
good biz in many areas.

So, would you really want to see the 100M lines of MS WinXP source 
code? Really?

For me, I care less about it.

I don't care about things like how Abiword works. Black box is fine. 
But, it better work correctly.

So, would you really want to see the 100M lines of MS WinXP source 
code? Really?

 I personally don't, but the chinnese goverment does. ;-) (For security 
 reasons).

So does European union in fact.

it's a load of crap. who has the resources to go through that? and 
do they really expect to find security holes by doing it?

Black box is fine. But, it better work correctly.

 I agree completely. The problem I face is that many good black boxes 
 that I used to appreciate, stop being useful to me for any of these 
 reasons:
1) Lack of vendor support
2) Vendor abandon the project (Bankarupy, Acquisitions, etc).

3) The software was never made public, so there is no way to change, 
modifiy it, adapt it, or evolve it.

I have a solution to all those.

I still wonder how much reinvention has happend. What will be of 
the world if the Church hasn't burnd so many accient text, from the 
greeks, to the incas.

For example, we have a source escrow account inside some mountain 
 in Colorado. ;)

Reinvention is a funny thing.

It is very context and need sensitive.

Escrow is good to a point.  Because it involves a legal process to 
access it.

For instance, you may ask "why reinvent the flashlight" -- but with 
the LED now that is happening, and the perfect flashlight is not 
here yet.

HA Carl !! Right on the spot ... That Ledlight issue i discussed 
just yesterday with someone...

For the most part, I would not want to use a single line of the junk 
source code I see out there. If I had, REBOL would be 10MB binary.

Best I guess is full licensing. But I believe that is expensive. 
I can not imaging licensing cost for DB2, AIX, and IBM Smalltalk.

I'm sometimes thinking about, how I should make money of a project 
like Canvas. I could make it close source and make .exe files with 
the SDK, and then maybe sell it to some niche markets. Is it possible 
to make money from it and have it open source at the same time? Any 
ideas?

(Yes, I have many LED lights here... none are perfect... yet.)

The bad part about the led-light story is that the Invention was 
OR highjacked or not patented by the people who invented it for Nepal's 
poor people..

Nah.  We can add anyone to the escrow at any time.

Of course, for some companies, we use it to negociate a better sale.

got to go. good chat. bye

Bye.

rejoin

Is it possible to make money from it and have it open source at the 
same time?

 Demonstrate where your solution(s) add value and then provide a service 
 (instllation, training, support, customization, etc) that folks need 
 / want to be able to use your "free" software effectively. I've said 
 this to a few people here already, but I've made quite a few dollars 
 selling OpenOffice installation and support to folks ... what's important 
 is the relationship you build with your customer(s); the fact that 
 you can under bid a proprietary solution and still make better margin 
 is just icing on the cake. ;)

Also, you have demostrated this by releasing RebDB and RebGUI. Which 
I believe are components of some of your commercial applications.

Correct. In this case I bundle various "free" components (RebDB, 
SQLite, RebGUI, AbiWord, etc) into a *solution* that people are prepared 
to pay for. My customers know the individual components are freely 
available, what they are paying for is a working application "distro".

perhaps you need this carl -> https://euronode.com/On demand Iso-image 
 building online for debian...

Owwww forget it !!! the fee is 175 Dollars...

example:
ISO20060306174904

Debian GNU/Linux system                         100.00 Euros

Unix Tools                                       25.00 Euros
- CD Recorder                                     5.00 Euros
- DVD+RW Recorder                                 5.00 Euros
- ISO FS maker                                    5.00 Euros
- GNU GCC compiler                                5.00 Euros
- GNU GDB debugger                                5.00 Euros
- Python language                                 5.00 Euros
- Ruby language                                   5.00 Euros
- NMAP security scanner                           5.00 Euros
- Tcpdump traffic dumper                          5.00 Euros
- Vi IMproved                                     5.00 Euros
============================================================
TOTAL                                           175.00 Euros