World: r3wp

hehe, Tom Halwerda got reply from someone from Syllable team apparently 
:-)
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 By Vanders (IP: ---.cable.ubr02.chap.blueyonder.co.uk) - Posted on 
 2005-07-04 22:34:20
Sorry Thom but you're wide of the mark on several counts.


Systems like the Amiga or BeOS failed for a number of reasons, but 
mostly because they were either tied to a minority hardware platform 
and through sheer poor management. It's fair to say that both were 
ahead of their time, which was certainly a contributing factor. We'll 
add NeXT to this list while we're here. Syllable and SkyOS are written 
for generic Intel PC hardware, and neither are old enough to know 
if Robert or I will kill either through bad management!


Sure we want to compete with Linux. Linux is a great OS on the server, 
it's a sucky desktop. I've been running it for over six years on 
my home PC and several years now in various real-world deployments 
in a server capacity. Year after year, Linux continues to dissapoint 
me as a desktop OS. Why shouldn't we compete with that? Saying "You 
can't compete with Linux!" is just deafeatism. The thing is, Syllable 
is not out to beat Linux. We want to co-exist with Linux and in doing 
so, enhance the Open Source ecosystem. Linux can run the servers, 
Syllable can run the clients. Makes sense to me.


Look, if in two years time us Syllable developers have nothing to 
show for it but an OS that only us six run and are happy with, well 
then that's fine with me! I'm sure as hell not going to roll over 
and pretend that I like using Linux on my desktop though. Why shouldn't 
we try to improve it? Because we might fail? Piffle.

Some quick points to finish off:


o Robert is a good developer but I don't believe he has the time 
or the hardware to have written every single driver for SkyOS from 
scratch. The video drivers are from X & if you asked him, I'd expect 
the NIC & audio drivers are BSDL.

o The Open Source nature of Syllable has never been in impedement 
to implementing features. We have a set or core developers and we 
make the decisions. We have a roadmap and we're following it. To 
paint Syllable as a band of wishy-washy Open Source developers with 
no direction who are somehow bogged down with arguments is misleading 
and dishonest. Just like SkyOS, if we decide a feature must go in 
it goes in.

o I'm not aware of a single company currently working with SkyOS. 
We can sign up for the exact same Developer Relations schemes as 
Robert can. Many companies don't seem to mind that Linux is Open 
Source, I fail to see how Syllable is any less legitimate in this 
regard.


Hard is the whole point Thom! What's the point in doing easy? Anyone 
can do easy!

Yep, take the high road .. as was mentioned the other day.

A VMware image is now available for Syllable 0.6.0a:

http://syllable.org

The previous ready-made VMware image was rather old. Combined with 
the recent release of the free player by VMware this means that a 
lot more people can evaluate Syllable who are not ready to install 
it on bare metal yet

Word is that the current Syllable on the current VMware runs pretty 
fast, so you'll get a more accurate impressions than with other emulators 
like QEme. I just hope the download site is not swamped, because 
this news is currently also featured on OSNews

Chances for a network-install or by copying cd to some partion? I 
have some old machines which work for most parts, except that cds 
are broken (small desktops with some laptop-parts mixed in)

You will have to start somewhere, and that's by booting the CD, even 
if we would introduce a network install

We used to have boot floppies, but we stopped supporting them

Way back when AtheOS was still on FAT you could have installed from 
some other system, but now with our own file system you need to boot 
Syllable itself

If it really irks you, you're welcome to port AFS to Linux ;-)

Hehe :) Lost my kernel-guru-hat somewhere. The fat-code is completely 
gone? I could not make a little fat-partition and put the image there?

You can do that to shuffle the base zip file to where you need it, 
but eventually you'll have to unpack that to a native Syllable partition

I only need it as a cd-replacement. To install from there.

Yes, that used to be a common route before the automated installer, 
but to install you'll still have to boot Syllable

Can that be done by the boot-loader? booting a special kernel?

Syllable still has a FAT driver, but it can't boot from it

That way i can install some linux without cd.

A special kernel? For what?

For running from fat and taking data from there, for intallation.

You don't need a special kernel. The FAT driver is separate. The 
problem still is that you have to boot Syllable to install it

I thought the kernal could be loaded from fat-partition. That loading 
is part of the boot-loader.

Which can take it from cd or hd or whatever. at least i did that 
with a linux.

You have to boot from CD. Either connect a CD player to those machines 
temporarily, or take out the hard disk and do the installation on 
a different machine

No, since AtheOS 0.1 or something you need to boot from an AFS partition. 
The live CD partly runs from an ISO9660 file system, but that doesn't 
help you any. The point is that a complete system needs to be installed 
on AFS and the only OS with an AFS driver is Syllable, so you have 
to boot Syllable to install Syllable

Now I remember linux uses a ramfloppy for the initial part. Yes, 
without that there is a problem.

We use a floppy image and a RAM disk as well on the CD. That's not 
the point

And the kernel can be loaded by a bootloader? grub or such? which 
 i can install from linux?

Yes and no. We use GrUB, but it's our own version with support for 
AFS. You can add that to your Linux GrUB if you have the exact same 
version, but it's tricky. Basically you have to install our GrUB 
from our CD. Please follow the installation instructions exactly

Hmm. If i put the bootloader on a floppy?

That could be done, but why?

Because i am now determined not to use a CD. No logic reason, just 
wanting to go with the head thru the wall. Its a personal ego thing, 
i want to find a way to do it ;)

About access to filesystem: Can that work on an image-file? then 
copying the image to the target-system?

Yes, it's easy to mount a disk image file in Syllable; the virtual 
file system doesn't need a loopback device for that as in Linux. 
However, I don't see how that is going to help you here

I port afs to linux, to write in an image-file. Then i put it on 
the real hd thru linux and network. then i have an afs-partition 
:)

The closest route to doing this would be to recreate the old manual 
way of installation. Copy the base zip package to a FAT partition. 
Download the last boot floppies that were available for old Syllable 
versions. Follow the old manual installation procedure

This will reguire fixing the boot floppies for the new Syllable versions. 
We don't bother with that anymore and I don't even remember why they 
don't work anymore, so this is anything but trivial

If you want to skip this level as well, I have two soldering irons 
for you that I don't use anymore, and the Atari-BASIC source of a 
disassembler that bootstrapped me into my career ;-)

Hmm. If i install that old sylable, it could make afs? and then i 
put could boot the new kernel from there?

You'd have to go through a zillion Syllable upgrades, which would 
leave you with a mess that has a dubious chance of working

Do you have a cable to connect that irons to a pc? Easier than snailmailing 
casettes.

No, but I have an EPROM burner that I don't use anymore that has 
a cable...

I would not upgrade. Only put install-image there, now its afs. (i 
would have networking to do that? Then install install-kernel too. 
then booting the install-kernel.

Burning on pc, making cartridges to run on iron?

Or plug cable in old iron instead?

I bought the burner to use from my Atari 8-bit. There was a PC program 
for it, but I could use it from the Atari in a sort of terminal mode

Using burner as kind of usb-stick? :)

Yes, your best chance would be to install the last Syllable with 
boot floppies (the last floppies worked for a few more versions, 
but I don't remember which), then unzip the complete 0.6.0a base 
zip over it. You'll have to edit the /boot/boot/grub/menu.lst as 
well

It had a Centronics port

Sylable - i try that.