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Killer App in REBOL

 [1/33] from: gchiu::compkarori::co::nz at: 20-Sep-2001 20:45


On Fri, 10 Aug 2001 20:50:33 +0200 "Maarten Koopmans" <[m--koopmans2--chello--nl]> wrote:
> I do have a nice name for the next killer app though: > Rebella (and now > picture a Lara Croft like icon). Marketing dept. is ready
I would change the name - sounds too much like Rubella - which is the German measles virus :) -- Graham Chiu

 [2/33] from: koopmans:itr:ing:nl at: 20-Sep-2001 10:59


That's why I dropped Rebola as well ;-) On Thursday 20 September 2001 10:45, you wrote:

 [3/33] from: ralph:abooks at: 20-Sep-2001 9:07


>On Fri, 10 Aug 2001 20:50:33 +0200 > "Maarten Koopmans" <[m--koopmans2--chello--nl]> wrote:
<<quoted lines omitted: 7>>
>Graham Chiu >--
I would keep it... think of the marketing jingos that could written: Rebella, la bella, she is stella, our Rebella ... etc. etc. How's that, fella? <g> --Ralph Roberts author REBOL FOR DUMMIES

 [4/33] from: dvydra:orion-it at: 9-Aug-2001 12:11


I would like to invite everyone to brainstorm about a killer application to be written in Rebol, one that would be widely used and easily recognizable. I will start with a suggestion that Yahoo should have a mail client written in Rebol. It should do dynamic caching of email, have the same folders as the web version and obviously support whatever ads they rely on for revenue. It should support offline view/edit of mail. I am not talking about writing a screen-scraper, but actually a server on Yahoos side to talk to a client written in R/View. If Yahoo exposes SOAP services then an independent company can write the client, but the matter of dealing with ads may be sensitive. Any ideas? dv

 [5/33] from: ryanc:iesco-dms at: 9-Aug-2001 14:02


Mostly a good idea, but ads are too easily disabled in rebol. Nonetheless, I think you on on to something, in that we can target companies, and write a some scripts for some companies for free, donations accepted, to get the ball rolling. If a company like yahoo picks this up, this could greatly change things. Forcing a client to do something is not rebol's strong side. Maybe RT has ideas on this? I cannot immediately think of anything that is not easily circumnavigateable in rebol. But wow, I am sure such a client could save Yahoo big bucks on BW. I think Yahoo or any big net company would like to see: * Better ad effectiveness * More efficient ad delivery * Expanded user base * Reduced customer support * More thorough user data * Revenue I am sure we can create programs to do such things, but once again, we need to be able to ensure that the ads get shown in the first place. I just cant think of anyway to do it that could not be bypassed in one or two words. --Ryan David Vydra wrote:
> I would like to invite everyone to brainstorm about a killer application to > be written in Rebol, one that would be widely used and easily recognizable.
<<quoted lines omitted: 12>>
> [rebol-request--rebol--com] with "unsubscribe" in the > subject, without the quotes.
-- Ryan Cole Programmer Analyst www.iesco-dms.com 707-468-5400

 [6/33] from: dness:home at: 9-Aug-2001 17:54


David Vydra wrote:
> I would like to invite everyone to brainstorm about a killer application to > be written in Rebol, one that would be widely used and easily recognizable. >
...
> Any ideas? > > dv >
While I am sympathetic with the objective of this exercise, I wonder if anyone can site a `killer app' that was ever created out of an explicit project to create a `killer app'. AFAIK _every_ killer app happened to arise as a `natural' process, often a detour on the way to solving some other problem which itself turned out ultimately to be of little interest itself.

 [7/33] from: ryanc:iesco-dms at: 9-Aug-2001 16:48


Pringles made the "killer" chip, and they sat out to do exactly that. I will agree though, in that humans are not very creative as we like to believe, and that our sheer intelligence applied to this situation, well, is not much when compared to the masses of asses, at least on a relative weight scale. But, we are armed with a pretty darn interisting language, a few bold fellas, and other things that have yet come to mind. --Ryan David Ness wrote:
> David Vydra wrote: > >
<<quoted lines omitted: 16>>
> [rebol-request--rebol--com] with "unsubscribe" in the > subject, without the quotes.
-- Ryan Cole Programmer Analyst www.iesco-dms.com 707-468-5400

 [8/33] from: gchiu:compkarori at: 10-Aug-2001 11:53


On Thu, 09 Aug 2001 12:11:29 -0700 David Vydra <[dvydra--orion-it--com]> wrote:
> I would like to invite everyone to brainstorm about a > killer application to > be written in Rebol, one that would be widely used and > easily recognizable. >
I don't think it is necessarily a killer app, but rewriting the java game clients used by Lycos/Playsite would be a excellent demonstration. At times there are over 2000 players on line, and the current java applet sucks big time - with frequent windows lock ups, crashes, disconnections etc. And I think it only works with IE on Windows. But whether Rebol or Rebol/express is up to the job - I'm not sure it scales up to that many users ... -- Graham Chiu

 [9/33] from: dness:home at: 9-Aug-2001 21:07


Ryan Cole wrote:
> Pringles made the "killer" chip, and they sat out to do exactly that. I will agree > though, in that humans are not very creative as we like to believe, and that our > sheer intelligence applied to this situation, well, is not much when compared to the > masses of asses, at least on a relative weight scale. > > But, we are armed with a pretty darn interisting language, a few bold fellas, and > other things that have yet come to mind. >
Well, there is always danger in _any_ generalization, but it strikes me that attempting to produce a `killer chip' is a very much more well defined activity than some vague general wish to create a `killer app'. The domain is reasonably well defined. The criterion of what constitutes `good' is probably reasonably well known (from market research) in advance, and we are looking for `improvement' in something pre-existing, in itself a fairly well constrained process. And, while I am not likely to do either, I would be much more comfortable (assuming I _knew_ something about potato chips and their marketing) with a narrower and more targeted wish to `improve' some existing product than to set out on some vague trip into the unknown. IME, `killer apps' are, like `happiness' most often a serendipitous and tangential result of doing something else and being lucky on the way. That's also perhaps why those who are so successful in producing a killer app, are almost never successful repeating them in `Act Two'.

 [10/33] from: dvydra:orion-it at: 9-Aug-2001 20:18


Can we have some examples please? I think that there are many successful apps and they came about in different ways. Some were intentional and some were not. For example Linux was perhaps accidental, but Netscape was a high-flying startup. Perhaps we need to be clear on what we consider a "killer app" -- 10K users, 100K? I don't think there are any Rebol apps in that category and that is why I am proposing to brainstorm about it. Regards david At 05:54 PM 8/9/2001 -0400, you wrote:

 [11/33] from: dvydra:orion-it at: 9-Aug-2001 20:22


I would actually suggest R/View talking to java or C++ on the server.

 [12/33] from: arolls:bigpond:au at: 10-Aug-2001 13:28


How about collaborative, networked music composition?

 [13/33] from: al:bri:xtra at: 10-Aug-2001 16:10


David wrote:
> I would like to invite everyone to brainstorm about a killer application
to be written in Rebol,... I've just worked out one. It involves WAP 'phones, WML & HTML, and databases,..
> ...one that would be widely used and...
If I'm not stopped, it'll be used in every school in New Zealand, Australia, England and may be America, and make me a lot of money.
> ...easily recognizable.
Unfortunately, it'll probably be hidden away in the server for the most part. Though I do hope that some data entry/display applications will be written in Rebol/View. Andrew Martin Working to replace himself... ICQ: 26227169 http://zen.scripterz.org

 [14/33] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 10-Aug-2001 6:16


Graham Chiu wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Aug 2001 12:11:29 -0700 > David Vydra <[dvydra--orion-it--com]> wrote:
<<quoted lines omitted: 6>>
> the java game clients used by Lycos/Playsite would be a > excellent demonstration.
Heh, even Amiga Inc. negotiated with Sharp it's support on their Zaurus PDAs. Have you seen their games? Simple ones, but probably nice. So what about creating Rebol games suite? :-) Hmm, we should add games category into library definitely. We currently have: Rebtris, several card games, Sokoban, simple chess game, Ryan is soon gonna announce another game ;-), Jeff has his unfinished strategy game ... we need one shoot 'em up one :-) Have you seen following? http://riks.jotto.no/riksjotto.html I AM sure Cyphre will bring some game to Rebol, IF: - RT frees sound capabilities ... - View engine gets a little bit updated - draw capabilities are good, just stopped 5 min before midnight (as I remember what Holger said was planned) - rotation effect is added - whatever (e.g. convolve for various new fast effects - heh, my favorite one broken record :-)) But even nowadays, some games can be brought to Rebol. I think it will help even /Express, as ppl at companies like to play sometimes too ;-) .... Cheers, -pekr-

 [15/33] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 10-Aug-2001 6:18


Anton wrote:
> How about collaborative, networked music composition?
not a problem - reBolek would like to do something like that, but he boycots such activity untill sound capabilities are not freed to general public usage ... -pekr-

 [16/33] from: dvydra:orion-it at: 9-Aug-2001 21:41


hmm, good idea. I saw something similar at the JavaOne keynote At 01:28 PM 8/10/2001 +1000, you wrote:

 [17/33] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 10-Aug-2001 6:29


David Vydra wrote:
> I would actually suggest R/View talking to java or C++ on the server.
Hmm, what do you mean? Command, even in Command/View version is available on most platforms. You can call native platform libraries. Or you mean COM, DCOM and similar proprietary technologies? I know it would be coold if there would be various platform related capabilities, but I would prefer becoming more "standards" tolerant - better XML support, SOAP, OLAP, XML-RPC etc. protocols support, other native databases support (PostGress, DB2 ...), improvments to View line, improvements to Command line (re SSL ...) -pekr- Let's see what are

 [18/33] from: dvydra:orion-it at: 9-Aug-2001 21:44


Certainly the Rebol/View based games I've seen seem much better then the early Java applets. At 06:16 AM 8/10/2001 +0200, you wrote:

 [19/33] from: dvydra:orion-it at: 9-Aug-2001 23:52


I dont know how scalable R/Command would be without multithreading, but I am not an expert on this, just a hunch. perhaps, someone has first hand experience. dv At 06:29 AM 8/10/2001 +0200, you wrote:

 [20/33] from: dockimbel:free at: 10-Aug-2001 11:18


Petr, You forgot Rebtroids ! http://www.sievertsen.de/REBOL/REBtroids.r A true old-classic shoot'em up game ! DocKimbel. Petr Krenzelok wrote: [...]

 [21/33] from: philb:upnaway at: 10-Aug-2001 18:18


And ReBox .... hours of torture (fun) .... Cheers Phil -- Original Message -- Petr, You forgot Rebtroids ! http://www.sievertsen.de/REBOL/REBtroids.r A true old-classic shoot'em up game ! DocKimbel. Petr Krenzelok wrote: [...]

 [22/33] from: rgaither:triad:rr at: 10-Aug-2001 10:08


>And ReBox .... hours of torture (fun) ....
Tell me about it. I'm on level 45 and getting ready to call a clinic about the addiction. :-) Rod.
>Cheers Phil >-- Original Message --
<<quoted lines omitted: 20>>
>[rebol-request--rebol--com] with "unsubscribe" in the >subject, without the quotes.
Rod Gaither Oak Ridge, NC - USA [rgaither--triad--rr--com]

 [23/33] from: mgh520:yah:oo at: 10-Aug-2001 9:10


Maybe cross platform support is the strength here. For instance, I use ofoto to upload my picture to the web and they provide a nice little GUI app for me to choose pictures and then actually upload them. I think pretty much every photo site has one of these, as well as things like yahoo briefcase (for uploading files) and other online drives. However, every single one of them is Windows only, and I'd like to be able to use Linux for this too. And what better app for Rebol than something that needs to be cross-platform, display images (and possibly do small image mods like contrast, brightness and color) and then upload to an internet location? Now, someone please write one for ofoto and Yahoo! briefcase so I can use them :-) Mike

 [24/33] from: robert:muench:robertmuench at: 10-Aug-2001 18:03


Hi, well all nice ideas but we have to target the guys (solutions) where the most $$$ are. From my experience have a look at the eBusiness - eProcurement game. Here are just a view short ideas: *Catalog Handling (import, clean-up, categorizing, conversion) *multi-supplier catalog engine *Desktop Procurement System with SAP backend integration All these will be killer-apps! I'm going to make some tests for the first one. The last one would be the coolest, but therefore we would need a truely browser-plug-in. Robert

 [25/33] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 10-Aug-2001 18:32


Hmm, finally someone shares similar ideas :-) I was thinking of e-business site creator. But even each of those many "e" terms is pretty much complex stuff. Using /Command I can think of good Rebol position in middleware area - connecting to various sources, databases, running defined jobs at defined times, communicating, generating final content. We want to create small intranet in such way. Well, we just can't supply our Lotus Notes solution, but Rebol is good in making concrete tasks reality really fast. As for Rebol becoming true middleware king, it would have to bring in support of many protocols, especially XML based ones, simply to become glue of external world technologies ... As for browser plug-in - it is a must for such plug-in to be combined with some html stuff - simply to run as java applets inside the browser window. Without that - let's don't call it plug-in - public will never regard it being one ... -pekr-

 [26/33] from: m:koopmans2:chello:nl at: 10-Aug-2001 20:50


Hi, I doubt the need for XML based protocols. As Graham showed, you can hand-code that integration easily. IMHO, the Zen of Rebol is: - data and code is mixed. Everything is meta. - Networking is so easy that you can make distributed applications in a day. All major network protocols are supported, as is database and encryption, which gives a pretty complete feature set for most problems to solve. The real problem we face is thinking about our problems. If you put Rebol to work at its full power you get amazing things. For example, Rebocalc in the script lib combined with Rim or Rugby. As Rebol is more or less a generational leap forward it is pretty tough thinking about the killer app when the world around you (i.e. your commercial counterparts) just aren't askingthe right questions yet. Until that time we end up with... old problems done more efficiently (and cheaper) which is also good, but just different. My feeling is that the killer app will need to be distributed to expose Rebols full potential, but that's just a that: a feeling. This is the reason I put so much effort into Rugby (plus the fact that it makes my proffesional life very easy). I do have a nice name for the next killer app though: Rebella (and now picture a Lara Croft like icon). Marketing dept. is ready ;-) --Maarten

 [27/33] from: philb:upnaway at: 11-Aug-2001 21:14


Hi Rod, My girlfriend has just found level 54 to be a copy of level 26 !!!! Hope you remembred how you did that one :-) Cheers Phil (& Penny)
>And ReBox .... hours of torture (fun) ....
Tell me about it. I'm on level 45 and getting ready to call a clinic about the addiction. :-) Rod.
>Cheers Phil >-- Original Message --
<<quoted lines omitted: 20>>
>[rebol-request--rebol--com] with "unsubscribe" in the >subject, without the quotes.
Rod Gaither Oak Ridge, NC - USA [rgaither--triad--rr--com]

 [28/33] from: doncox:enterprise at: 11-Aug-2001 19:02


Hello David On 10-Aug-01, David Vydra wrote:
> Can we have some examples please? I think that there are many > successful apps and they came about in different ways. Some were > intentional and some were not. For example Linux was perhaps > accidental, but Netscape was a high-flying startup. > Perhaps we need to be clear on what we consider a "killer app" -- 10K > users, 100K?
It's usually one that people will buy the hardware to run, such as Sibelius on the Acorn computer, or Visicalc on the Apple. For Rebol, it would be the program that had tens of millions of people downloading Rebol for their computers. You just have to think of an application that would be irresistable for tens of millions of users. It would be in the area of communication/chat, world-wide politics, a peer-to-peer thing like Napster .... Regards -- Don Cox [doncox--enterprise--net]

 [29/33] from: pablo_74:libero:it at: 11-Aug-2001 21:24


Salve David Il 09-Ago-01, tu hai OSATO scrivere:
> I would like to invite everyone to brainstorm about a killer application to > be written in Rebol, one that would be widely used and easily recognizable. >
why not an e-learning system? this software is writted in java, but i think that's rebol (view and core) are little better and simple u know? Statt Bun Paolo -- http://www.next-service.com/torres - Torres - Il Mondo dell'Ufficio

 [30/33] from: ptretter:charter at: 11-Aug-2001 15:42


How about a port mapper that can be "smart" and relay incoming and outgoing information to other ports. Paul Tretter

 [31/33] from: jelinem1:nationwide at: 13-Aug-2001 10:56


Are any of these games net-aware? REBOL naturally makes net applications easy, and IMO there's no excuse why any multi-player game written in Rebol shouldn't be. Multi-player net-aware games - even little ones - will be alot more popular than single-machine games! - Michael Jelinek Petr Krenzelok <[Petr--Krenzelok--trz--cz]> Sent by: [rebol-bounce--rebol--com] 08/09/01 11:16 PM Please respond to rebol-list T To: [rebol-list--rebol--com] cc: bcc: Subject: [REBOL] Re: Killer App in REBOL Graham Chiu wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Aug 2001 12:11:29 -0700 > David Vydra <[dvydra--orion-it--com]> wrote:
<<quoted lines omitted: 6>>
> the java game clients used by Lycos/Playsite would be a > excellent demonstration.
Heh, even Amiga Inc. negotiated with Sharp it's support on their Zaurus PDAs. Have you seen their games? Simple ones, but probably nice. So what about creating Rebol games suite? :-) Hmm, we should add games category into library definitely. We currently have: Rebtris, several card games, Sokoban, simple chess game, Ryan is soon gonna announce another game ;-), Jeff has his unfinished strategy game ... we need one shoot 'em up one :-) Have you seen following? http://riks.jotto.no/riksjotto.html I AM sure Cyphre will bring some game to Rebol, IF: - RT frees sound capabilities ... - View engine gets a little bit updated - draw capabilities are good, just stopped 5 min before midnight (as I remember what Holger said was planned) - rotation effect is added - whatever (e.g. convolve for various new fast effects - heh, my favorite one broken record :-)) But even nowadays, some games can be brought to Rebol. I think it will help even /Express, as ppl at companies like to play sometimes too ;-) .... Cheers, -pekr-

 [32/33] from: twatkins:datajunction at: 13-Aug-2001 11:31


One simple way to make a single player game net-aware, is to incorporate a chat client in it in some form. This would be especially useful in puzzle games(such as ReBox?) This could be an optional setting, and this is something that should be easy to attach(almost a separate application) to each game with one version. It becomes even more useful in the larger actual multi-player games, where you could chat with your buddies to plan out tactics and such. ----- Original Message ----- From: <[JELINEM1--nationwide--com]> To: <[rebol-list--rebol--com]> Sent: Monday, August 13, 2001 10:56 AM Subject: [REBOL] Re: Killer App in REBOL Are any of these games net-aware? REBOL naturally makes net applications easy, and IMO there's no excuse why any multi-player game written in Rebol shouldn't be. Multi-player net-aware games - even little ones - will be alot more popular than single-machine games! - Michael Jelinek

 [33/33] from: ryanc:iesco-dms at: 13-Aug-2001 10:57


My yet to be released version of "Ploy" is a networked multiplayer strategy game with a chat client. 2 players initially, but later I will add some different boards so you can play any number of players. It should be done a day and a half from whenever I find a day and a half to work on it--I hope sometime this month. --Ryan [JELINEM1--nationwide--com] wrote:
> Are any of these games net-aware? REBOL naturally makes net applications > easy, and IMO there's no excuse why any multi-player game written in Rebol
<<quoted lines omitted: 67>>
> [rebol-request--rebol--com] with "unsubscribe" in the > subject, without the quotes.
-- Ryan Cole Programmer Analyst www.iesco-dms.com 707-468-5400

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