Smart Client
[1/23] from: AJMartin:orcon at: 30-Sep-2003 20:30
Quoted from:
http://www.windowsforms.net/whitepaper/whywindowsforms.aspx
Microsoft Windows® Forms is the set of classes in the .NET Framework that
enables the rapid development of powerful smart client applications. Its
benefits include:
a..
Extending the Microsoft Visual Basic® rapid application development
experience to all of the programming languages supported by the .NET
Framework (more than 20).
a..
Providing developers with rich, powerful, extensible libraries for
user-interface controls and graphics.
a..
Providing dramatically improved support for localization, printing,
layout, and usability.
a..
Making it easy for developers to tie XML Web services into their smart
client applications.
a..
Dramatically reducing total cost of ownership through "no-touch"
deployment, which eliminates "DLL hell" and makes it possible for smart
client applications to be deployed and updated using a remote Web server.
It reminds me of the promise of Rebol, but seems to deliver. :-/
Andrew J Martin
Grail Jedi
ICQ: 26227169
http://www.rebol.it/Valley/
http://valley.orcon.net.nz/
http://Valley.150m.com/
[2/23] from: brett:codeconscious at: 30-Sep-2003 19:08
> It reminds me of the promise of Rebol, but seems to deliver. :-/
I'll be suspicious of such claims until I can experience them myself. It
might be true but the cost to achieve them are not often preannounced.
Nevertheless I do agree that having those benefits along with the expressive
power of REBOL would be a good thing.
..the promis of REBOL,..
- my experience with REBOL has taught me things
I didn't expect to learn and given me an new tool to explore ideas. I'm sure
we all had different expectations of REBOL when we picked it up. My joy with
REBOL is to apply it more areas than I expected, my frustration is in being
limited to applying REBOL in less number of areas than I increasingly
expect!
Regards,
Brett.
[3/23] from: bry:itnisk at: 30-Sep-2003 11:10
> a..
> Making it easy for developers to tie XML Web services into their
smart
>client applications.
XML Web services in Microsoft terms is SOAP, a never ending hell which
delivers cross-platform compatibility to anyone on a Microsoft platform.
:)
[4/23] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 30-Sep-2003 9:53
Hi Andrew,
AJM> It reminds me of the promise of Rebol, but seems to deliver. :-/
Ouch! And I disagree; I don't see the promise of REBOL in those terms
at all. I would also say we need to define "seems to deliver". I think
only time will tell how well .NET lives up to its ad campaign. :)
People are the in honeymoon phase with .NET, and just because some
things are better than they were before (current perception anyway),
doesn't mean they were great to begin with. :)
-- Gregg
[5/23] from: maximo:meteorstudios at: 30-Sep-2003 12:23
Hum...
Doesn't IOS do just that!?
(except for printing, which could be done with html and a pro license)...
Rapid and distributed application development. add a rugby server in the loop and even
your code gets to be access from any system. The only thing is that IOS needs a license
per user...
XML is a microsoft file format even if they would want you to believe otherwise. And
by what I can see on this list over the several years I've listened to xml speak... it
is a nightmare to actually implement your own xml parser.
The other thing of note is that MS never really invents anything, which is why they are
profitable, they copy (save all the R&D) (or purchase engineers who invented whatever
elsewhere), and then out-market their opponents. This is why linux, not disapearing,
really is a growing concern for them. if they don't sell windows and people have alternatives
to .net... what is the future for them? they'll never go belly up, but their days of
easy and cheesy sales are getting more and more counted. computers aren't just for geeks,
and 10 year olds can install linux by themselves. Heck a class of "cisco router management"
is part of a local school's computer classes for 10 year olds, really I was dumbfounded
when I read that!!!! Apple has roared back and matches MS in terms of Marketing any
day...
Look around and you are bound to find a better alternative to any MS software. I am
not a .net enthousiast or professional but as usual MS thing, it needs hundreds of MB
to install, is easily broken by many means such as the registry or a stray software,
etc, etc. .net probably works, MS word eventually got to being ok (but not great). But
if its like any VB i've done before, its probably a mess to actualy implement and then
the next version comes out and it takes a month to get stability back.
I hate MS, having been affected by their $#%^& corporate practices with the purchase
and eventual re-sale of Softimage. They canned one of the most revolutionary software
architectures BUILT ON SGI and forced it to be (sort of) rebuilt on windows nt... the
problem is that the end result was only a shadow of the original design... This was 10
years ago and the original system still doesn't exist... To they effectively kept an
innovative
I'm wondering if RT hasn't already been approached for an acquision deal. I hope they
will resist if they have/ever do.
-max
-----------
meteor Studios, T.D.
-----------
Never Argue with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level and beat you with
experience
[6/23] from: odycy:sympatico:ca at: 30-Sep-2003 14:40
Re: Maxim & Microsoft
I'm not so sure about XML being a) a Microsoft file format or b) that
parsing it is all that difficult, but I basically chucked MS for
development purposes about a year ago, and darn near went bankrupt as a
result. Here in Canada, if anything, imho blind allegiance to the Vole is
more mindless and pandemic than the US.
Fwiw, you can even get decent performance out of a Windows box by shutting
off IE, dumping the shell for Litestep or what-have-you. (I should point
out I only realized I was doing this to this particular machine after the
fact - it wasn't a plan, per se.) Once I dumped out Excel and Access and
generally eschewed all things Vole, I began to see what I think is the
ulitmate goal here, which is to get these little flat things on our desks
to do what we want instead of what Little Billy wants.
I've noticed a few emails lately which have asked about interfacing Rebol
with MS This, release n**4, and my experience building this strange little
computer says "find the simple solution at the cheapest cost" almost
always means dumping VoleBloat.
There's almost always a Rebol way, and doing it from the ground up in
Rebol has always taxed my aging mind less than tilting at the MS windmill.
There's still a ton more for me to learn, but I'm muddling through, with
your combined experiences to guide me. Thanks for that.
This machine is now dedicated to running a server for people with
addictions to use. It provides a useful free public service worldwide for
alcoholics and other substance abusers. By and large, it runs on an
inexpensive piece of hardware and it doesn't make the Vole a dime [sic].
It's not 100% REBOL, but there's a lot, plus Python and PHP on Apache.
Take heart, Maxim. My guess is the markets might yet take VoleSoft to
task. Folks here tend worry more about the economic effect of bursting
that bubble, but North America did survive the markets' belated
acknowledgment that we made crappy cars. Now I betcha there's the odd Merc
or Beemer in the Vole's staff parking lots.
Me, I was figuring maybe I should sue the Vole for exacerbating my own
addictions with the convoluted dross that Redmond passes off as
development software. Dang! It says I have to take responsibility for my
own addictions!
Peter
[7/23] from: nitsch-lists:netcologne at: 30-Sep-2003 20:43
Hi Andrew,
(i hope i strike the right comical note below)
Ah flaming! (whirling torchlight).
Am Dienstag, 30. September 2003 10:30 schrieb A J Martin:
> Quoted from:
> http://www.windowsforms.net/whitepaper/whywindowsforms.aspx
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>
> experience to all of the programming languages supported by the .NET
> Framework (more than 20).
My personal VB-expert is Gregg and he says REBOL beats it.
So it beats every other language then! ;)
> a..
> Providing developers with rich, powerful, extensible libraries for
> user-interface controls and graphics.
>
An Andrew Martin on this list needed as much lines with "using" as
i would for the whole viewer! ;)
> a..
> Providing dramatically improved support for localization, printing,
> layout, and usability.
>
localisation. hum. i could plug my %translate.r in, but nobody noted it,
so i plug it out.
printing, it works with a browser.
btw a spreadsheet uses VB as its storage-format,
so it can be generated as text and imported in excel as macro.
something similar to file ms-word with letters?
> a..
> Making it easy for developers to tie XML Web services into their smart
> client applications.
>
AFAIK one can ask "which smart client applications" quite successfully
currently?
> a..
> Dramatically reducing total cost of ownership through "no-touch"
> deployment, which eliminates "DLL hell" and makes it possible for smart
> client applications to be deployed and updated using a remote Web server.
>
I am confused. I could swear thats arguments with which Steve sells
all this ios-servers to .net-users?! except he shows it and does not use words
like "dramatically". ;)
> It reminds me of the promise of Rebol, but seems to deliver. :-/
>
it seems it seems. [Scot--rebol] said they offer 60day-trial-servers for ios,
and after this 60 days they make the deal. everytime.
didn't say how much that is.
but gave me the feeling REBOL/IOS delivers its promises quite a bit. ;)
while looking for smart client applications with plugin-services -
wait, wasn't there watson or something? but that was on apple.-
(me starts grumbling about apple sherlocking their independend killer-apps,
pointing vagualy at osnews somewhere, walking grumbling away)
> Andrew J Martin
;)
-Volker
[8/23] from: nitsch-lists::netcologne::de at: 30-Sep-2003 20:50
Am Dienstag, 30. September 2003 18:23 schrieb Maxim Olivier-Adlhoch:
> Hum...
>
> Doesn't IOS do just that!?
>
> (except for printing, which could be done with html and a pro license)...
>
> Rapid and distributed application development. add a rugby server in the
> loop and even your code gets to be access from any system. The only thing
> is that IOS needs a license per user...
>
And it gets really expensive!
$100 for IOS per user + $250 for windows per user, something like this..
(forgot to add hardware per user.
can somewhere upgrade, no add to the calculation?)
[snipped lots of agreement]
> -max
> -----------
-volker
[9/23] from: odycy:sympatico:ca at: 30-Sep-2003 15:11
Sorry, I got so carried away with my own rage against the Vole I forgot to
make my own point. Most of my Rebol problems on Windows went away when I
dropped the MS half of the equation and implemented a solution in REBOL or
Python or what-have-you. - Peter
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:40:05 -0400, Odycy Server Administration
<[odycy--sympatico--ca]> wrote:
> Re: Maxim & Microsoft
> I'm not so sure about XML being a) a Microsoft file format or b) that
<<quoted lines omitted: 36>>
> own addictions!
> Peter
--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
[10/23] from: andrew:martin:colenso:school at: 1-Oct-2003 8:12
> "..the promise of REBOL,.." - my experience with REBOL has taught me
things I didn't expect to learn and given me an new tool to explore
ideas. I'm sure we all had different expectations of REBOL when we
picked it up. My joy with REBOL is to apply it more areas than I
expected, my frustration is in being limited to applying REBOL in less
number of areas than I increasingly expect!
Just a "me too!" email. :)
Andrew J Martin
Attendance Officer &
Grail Jedi.
Colenso High School
Arnold Street, Napier.
Tel: 64-6-8310180 ext 826
Fax: 64-6-8336759
http://colenso.net/scripts/Wiki.r?AJM
http://www.colenso.school.nz/
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[11/23] from: andrew:martin:colenso:school at: 1-Oct-2003 8:24
> > Making it easy for developers to tie XML Web services into their
smart client applications.
> XML Web services in Microsoft terms is SOAP, a never ending hell which
delivers cross-platform compatibility to anyone on a Microsoft platform.
> :)
I want to create a DotNet program which understands Rebol values, so I
can keep the best of Rebol, with the best parts of DotNet (native
Windows user interface which is also easy to program).
Andrew J Martin
Attendance Officer &
Grail Jedi.
Colenso High School
Arnold Street, Napier.
Tel: 64-6-8310180 ext 826
Fax: 64-6-8336759
http://colenso.net/scripts/Wiki.r?AJM
http://www.colenso.school.nz/
DISCLAIMER: Colenso High School and its Board of Trustees is not responsible (or legally
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[12/23] from: andrew:martin:colenso:school at: 1-Oct-2003 9:03
max wrote:
> Doesn't IOS do just that!?
>
> (except for printing, which could be done with html and a pro
license)...
Except for multi-line text boxes, where cursor movement isn't handled
correctly. Here's an example:
example line 1 blah blah blah blah
example line 2 blah blah
Try to down arrow from line 1 to 2 when the cursor is positioned near or
at the end of line 1. You'll find that the cursor won't move in
Rebol/View.
Except for menus in Rebol/View, which there aren't any. Yes, I know that
some programs can be written without menus, but a number of programs
can't be written for novice and low-skilled users with out menu support.
These kind of programs I need to write and have going ASAP.
> ...it is a nightmare to actually implement your own xml parser.
Agreed. I've found it difficult as well. But I've found that creating
XML is remarkably easy now with my ML dialect for Rebol, which allows me
to create HTML and XHTML pages really easily and the same with MS Excel
spreadsheets.
> But if it's like any VB I've done before, it's probably a mess to
actually implement and then the next version comes out and it takes a
month to get stability back.
I don't get that impression for DotNet. Mind you, I've only had a
weekend's experience in writing C# programs. I can see that the library
stuff is a lot easier to use than the old Win32 API. I've also read
something similar in the MS MSDN site, and about the efforts MS went to
ensure that this didn't happen again. I'm also impressed by the effort
MS went to, to ensure that dynamic and scripting languages weren't left
out in the CLR (Common Language Runtime).
I'd really like Rebol to have native user interface on all the platforms
it runs on. But I can't see it happening. I think it's unrealistic to
wait or hope for this to arrive.
Instead, what I'm planning on doing is having DotNet and C# for rich
clients (Colenso uses Windows), with Rebol as the intermediate layer,
which communicates through the DotNet client, via TCP or CGI, or through
using Soccer, Rugby, or it's successor (Sorry, can't remember it's
name). That way I can have the best of both worlds: compatibility with
Windows and the expressive power of Rebol. And I can then avoid the
worst of the both worlds, which are things like parsing XML in DotNet &
Rebol, non-native user interface in Rebol, and expressive power in C#.
Andrew J Martin
Attendance Officer &
Grail Jedi.
Colenso High School
Arnold Street, Napier.
Tel: 64-6-8310180 ext 826
Fax: 64-6-8336759
http://colenso.net/scripts/Wiki.r?AJM
http://www.colenso.school.nz/
DISCLAIMER: Colenso High School and its Board of Trustees is not responsible (or legally
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[13/23] from: andrew:martin:colenso:school at: 1-Oct-2003 9:34
Volker wrote:
> Ah flaming! (whirling torchlight).
Hissss! (Ouch!) :)
> An Andrew Martin on this list needed as much lines with "using" as i
would for the whole viewer! ;)
I'm no expert, but with my little program in a hour or two, I achieved
far more Windows user interface compatibility than I and others have
achieved in Rebol in several years... :-/
> > Providing dramatically improved support for localization, printing,
layout, and usability.
> localisation. hum. i could plug my %translate.r in, but nobody noted
it, so i plug it out.
Hey! I only speak one language. (I'm just a mono-culturist at the
moment.) But at least with my home version of Windows, I can now write
Maori (one of NZ's two official languages). :) (Not yet with Colenso's
systems as the Windows software to do so hasn't been installed.) But I
can't yet type into Rebol and get it show Maori macrons. :-/
> printing, it works with a browser.
Yes, I've tried it and it works well (my Wiki and other scripts do/allow
this). Unfortunately there's some graphics I can't print using a browser
interface. For example a horizontal bar looking a lot like a thermometer
on it's side, with a variable position of the "level".
Also, I can't change paper size or specify headers and footers on each
page. This has to be manually done through the browser's print settings.
And then when it's changed, it has to be changed back again afterwards.
> btw a spreadsheet uses VB as its storage-format, so it can be
generated as text and imported in excel as macro. something similar to
file ms-word with letters?
Hmmm, I haven't heard of that. I do know that MS Excel 2002 allows using
XML as input. This is very neat as one can use this to create multiple
sheet work books, which is very nice for generating reports in as an
output from a Rebol script (I've got several Rebol scripts which do this
now.)
> AFAIK one can ask "which smart client applications" quite successfully
currently?
http://www.microsoft.com/nz/msdn/default.mspx
And click on "Case Studies for Developers". The one that I find most
interesting is the GeoVector one, where people can use a GPS equipped,
pocket PC and find out information about real world places and objects
just by pointing the pocket PC! I also didn't realise there was so many
developers in NZ!
And there's mine. :) But it's not written yet. :( But it'll use Rebol!
:) And C#! :-/ But it'll have a native windows user interface! :)
Let's shoot Rebol's horse and turn it into glue. :) :) :D Smart glue.
Andrew J Martin
Attendance Officer &
Grail Jedi.
Colenso High School
Arnold Street, Napier.
Tel: 64-6-8310180 ext 826
Fax: 64-6-8336759
http://colenso.net/scripts/Wiki.r?AJM
http://www.colenso.school.nz/
DISCLAIMER: Colenso High School and its Board of Trustees is not responsible (or legally
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[14/23] from: rotenca:telvia:it at: 1-Oct-2003 0:18
Hi Andrew,
> Except for multi-line text boxes, where cursor movement isn't handled
> correctly. Here's an example:
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
> at the end of line 1. You'll find that the cursor won't move in
> Rebol/View.
Do you want a patch?
> Except for menus in Rebol/View, which there aren't any. Yes, I know that
> some programs can be written without menus, but a number of programs
> can't be written for novice and low-skilled users with out menu support.
> These kind of programs I need to write and have going ASAP.
There are at least 3 menu styles around.
What I do not understand well is that people often seems to wait everything
from RT. I used many languages in my life and I have always used external
libraries and third party tools, why cannot it happen with Rebol? There is
some obscure reason? RT cannot make everything and Rebol should be a very
limited language if only RT could release additional features.
Sometime third party tools are better than official ones, and i think that
this is mandatory for Rebol. If RT should add to the language all the features
needed by a good visual interface language, View will become a huge
executable, losing one of its feature: lightness.
For example, I saw in deep in these days the Rebol pop protocol, it is a
masterpiece for what it makes with so little code, but it is far from
supporting all the features of the pop3 protocol. If you want to support them
you must double the size at least. And pop is a very limited protocol. Almost
all RT code is of this nature: small, light, fast ASAP, but not at all
complete. It is only a dream to put all protocols, all I/o, all visual
interface styles and support in a so small executable. Carl is a great
programmer not Harry Potter (the wizard) :-).
---
Ciao
Romano
[15/23] from: andrew:martin:colenso:school at: 1-Oct-2003 10:50
Hi, Romana.
> Do you want a patch?
Yes, please. I'll put it into my %Patch.r script so more people will
know about it and can use it.
> I used many languages in my life and I have always used external
libraries and third party tools, why cannot it happen with Rebol?
I agree. At the moment I feel that Rebol is best suited for connecting
other bits of software, like smart glue, and for creating X/HTML and
XML. I've found that DotNet and C# gives me the best native user
interface for Windows. All I need now is to find a way to connect
DotNet/C# and Rebol together. I'd like a C# parser for Rebol values that
have been 'mold-ed into a text string. Failing that, I could probably
make do with XML created by Rebol and my ML script and interpreted by C#
using it's XML parser.
Andrew J Martin
Attendance Officer &
Grail Jedi.
Colenso High School
Arnold Street, Napier.
Tel: 64-6-8310180 ext 826
Fax: 64-6-8336759
http://colenso.net/scripts/Wiki.r?AJM
http://www.colenso.school.nz/
DISCLAIMER: Colenso High School and its Board of Trustees is not responsible (or legally
liable) for materials distributed to or acquired from user e-mail accounts. You can report
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All outgoing messages are certified virus-free by McAfee GroupShield Exchange 5.10.285.0
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[16/23] from: michael:weber:infospace at: 30-Sep-2003 15:56
[17/23] from: andrew:martin:colenso:school at: 1-Oct-2003 12:03
Michael Weber wrote:
I see you're speechless! :) :D
Andrew J Martin
Attendance Officer &
Grail Jedi.
Colenso High School
Arnold Street, Napier.
Tel: 64-6-8310180 ext 826
Fax: 64-6-8336759
http://colenso.net/scripts/Wiki.r?AJM
http://www.colenso.school.nz/
DISCLAIMER: Colenso High School and its Board of Trustees is not responsible (or legally
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[18/23] from: bry:itnisk at: 1-Oct-2003 10:29
>Instead, what I'm planning on doing is having DotNet and C# for rich
>clients (Colenso uses Windows), with Rebol as the intermediate layer,
>which communicates through the DotNet client, via TCP or CGI, or
through
>using Soccer, Rugby, or it's successor (Sorry, can't remember it's
>name). That way I can have the best of both worlds: compatibility with
>Windows and the expressive power of Rebol. And I can then avoid the
>worst of the both worlds, which are things like parsing XML in DotNet &
>Rebol, non-native user interface in Rebol, and expressive power in C#.
Jason Diamond implemented that xml2codedom thing I was talking about
earlier: http://radio.weblogs.com/0101391/
Here's a hello world xml codedom rep:
http://radio.weblogs.com/0101391/categories/net/HelloWorld.xml
I know you're saying that's awful and verbose, true, but I think that's
more a function in this case of him implementing a 1-1 relationship
between his xml structure and the CodeDom structure.
Here's codeDom info:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/cpguide
/html/cpconusingcodedom.asp
The one I have seems to be newer than the one's I can find via google, I
think it's because it was at injektilo.org which no longer exists.
[19/23] from: maximo:meteorstudios at: 1-Oct-2003 8:49
Would a dynamically skinnable and dynamically locale switchable alternative to vid change
your mind about using windows ui?
-max
-----------
meteor Studios, T.D.
-----------
Never Argue with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level and beat you with
experience
[20/23] from: ingo:2b1 at: 1-Oct-2003 15:03
Hi Romano,
Romano Paolo Tenca wrote:
> Hi Andrew,
<..>
> What I do not understand well is that people often seems to wait everything
> from RT. I used many languages in my life and I have always used external
> libraries and third party tools, why cannot it happen with Rebol? There is
> some obscure reason? RT cannot make everything and Rebol should be a very
> limited language if only RT could release additional features.
... as I see it, there are two main obstacles to the adoption of third
party libs/tool in Rebol
1) I guess, in all those languages using a third party lib doesn't
increase the number of files to be installed in any significant way,
whereas in Rebol - in the simplest case - it's an increase by 33% (of my
maths serve me well) (Rebol executable, your script, AND the third party
lib ... ;-)
> There are at least 3 menu styles around.
2) Where? Or in other words, a central repositry where you'll be sure to
find everything is still missing in the mindset of most Rebolers, though I
hope rebol.org will get there.
Kind regards,
Ingo
[21/23] from: amicom:sonic at: 1-Oct-2003 6:42
Well said, Gregg!
-Bo
At 09:53 AM 9/30/03 -0600, you wrote:
[22/23] from: andrew:martin:colenso:school at: 2-Oct-2003 8:28
max wrote:
> Would a dynamically skinnable and dynamically locale switchable
alternative to vid change your mind about using windows ui?
Yes, I'd to see Steel.
:)
Andrew J Martin
Attendance Officer &
Grail Jedi.
Colenso High School
Arnold Street, Napier.
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[23/23] from: AJMartin:orcon at: 2-Oct-2003 23:00
bryan wrote:
> Jason Diamond implemented that xml2codedom thing I was talking about
> earlier: http://radio.weblogs.com/0101391/
>
> Here's a hello world xml codedom rep:
> http://radio.weblogs.com/0101391/categories/net/HelloWorld.xml
That seems to be replaced now with:
http://www.ericjsmith.net/codesmith/tutorial.aspx
> Here's codeDom info:
>
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/cpguide/html/cpconusingcodedom.asp
I think that could be quite useful.
Thanks, bryan!
Andrew J Martin
Grail Jedi
ICQ: 26227169
http://www.rebol.it/Valley/
http://valley.orcon.net.nz/
http://Valley.150m.com/
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