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Open source project

 [1/20] from: joel:neely:fedex at: 6-Oct-2000 8:52


(Following up from the previous note, "Re: Transpose") How about this for a REBOL community open-source project? REBster: a (distributed?) "dictionary" to a distributed collection of servers offering a library of re-usable functions and objects. The client could search the directory by: author, title, REBOL "flavor" (/Core, /View, /Command, etc.), REBOL release level (/Core/2.3, /Command/1.0, etc.), keywords, server, (did I leave out any obviously useful search options?) To maximize convenience of use, the client should use a standard design for a local cache of REBster content that integrates seamlessly with an "include" facility to make utilizing library parts as simple as possible. Such a design (possibly similar to that of CPAN) should support caching locally only what one actually wants to use, should support simple local maintenance (as in the REBOL "upgrade", allowing one to say "get me the most recent version of all the stuff I'm caching locally"), should support resolution of dependencies (as in the RPM "install this module and anything that it needs that I don't already have" mechanism). To provide aid and comfort to the widest possible audience of REBOLutionaries, this system should run on REBOL/Core (although individual items offered via the system could, of course, be designed for specific flavors). To be as widely accessible (and quick to build...) as possible, I suggest that it only utilize HTTP, as that is most likely to be passable through firewalls, etc. Details of submission protocols would have to be worked out, but there are some slightly-at-odds goals here: make it easy enough to submit content that it's not a burden on the submitter, but insist on having enough (documentation, meta-data, conformance to library conventions/standards, etc.) that the recipient can easily find what is being sought, have reasonable confidence that (s)he will get the desired capabilities, that it won't break her/his system, etc. It also needs to support allowing multiple people to offer varying implementations for a given concept with minimal red tape AND minimal likelihood of confusion/collision. Thoughts, suggestions, comments welcome! -jn-

 [2/20] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 6-Oct-2000 16:11


I strongly suggest your thoughts to go hand in hand with Andrew Martin's implementation of enhancements/patches/plug-ins/components etc. You surely read what we've discussed here with Martin. Functions and objects are just snippets of much bigger contexts - modules/plug-ins/components (in bottom-up manner) ... Noone yet proved REBOL is well suited for larger apps. We need more general aproaches, mechanisms, etc. It's time to establish some of them, or we will end-up writing "only" scripts and nothing more ... We pay too much attention to wow factor of /View, while Core technology is not further advanced (parser, modules, bugs, lack of handling of components, etc.) I strongly wonder probably noone else except me and Martin regards core, lower level stuff as the essential for above layers. The project should introduce top matrice for other projects as rebmail for e.g. But really - I would still prefer seeing modules introduced in REBOL rather than all that file & co requesters, as without it, we can't know how it will affect our general aproach we are about to introduce. Still - is here anyone who remembers Dick Whitings set of automatic installation, localisation, extended help, examples, various category function libraries etc? It's still the most complete set of script and concepts introduced to REBOL. We should build something similar .... -pekr-

 [3/20] from: news:ted:husted at: 6-Oct-2000 10:57


> Thoughts, suggestions, comments welcome!
How abut if we start with a REBOL Planet directory for working scripts, that includes a category for re-usable functions and objects? e.g. < http://cgi.resourceindex.com/ > maybe using Elan's DBMS for a backend. And promote along with with it a standard (but optional) utility for installing and configuring REBOL scripts (REBster?), as you said, along the lines of RPM. If I get your high-concept, REBster would track which scripts you have installed, and their dependancies. If something was needed, it would first try to obtain it from the pristine source, or consult a central directory (REBOL Planet?) for the pristine or best-available source. REBster could also check the scripts it installed for upgrades, perform them if requested, and rollback if things break (including itself of course). BobR did some seminal work in the vien of configuring scripts with his update of Andrews Wiki script. < http://husted.com/rebol-dev/wiki2-r.txt > - Not the most current version (which is why we need REBster!). I think these projects would be synergistic, since a script directory needs an easy way for people to install and try scripts, and a script-manager needs a way for people to find scripts to manage. The directory could also provide name and version management so that each script can be uniquely identified. I can contribute the server space, including a domain if we want to take one out, along with the nuts and bolts management. (My programming talents pale in present company.) Of course, we might also put this on SourceForge for better exposure. (Hey! How about REBOL/View CVS client.) -Ted.

 [4/20] from: news:ted:husted at: 6-Oct-2000 11:12


On 10/6/2000 at 4:11 PM [Petr--Krenzelok--trz--cz] wrote:
> We pay too much attention to wow factor of /View, while Core
technology is not further advanced (parser, modules, bugs, lack of handling of components, etc.) I strongly agree that REBOL advocacy and hero-worship tend to blind us to the key things that REBOL lacks in order to be perceived as a professional platforms. The simplest of these are a bug list, knowledgebase, and formal language specification. I truly believe that failing to provide these have seriously hobbled both the development and acceptance of REBOL. It deserves better. -Ted.

 [5/20] from: joel:neely:fedex at: 6-Oct-2000 11:16


OBTW, I briefly considered "REBtella", but "REBster" seemed a better choice for an o-pun source dictionary. [joel--neely--fedex--com] wrote:
> REBster: a (distributed?) "dictionary" to a distributed collection > of servers offering a library of re-usable functions and > objects... >
-- ; Joel Neely [joel--neely--fedex--com] 901-263-4460 38017/HKA/9677 REBOL [] print to-string debase decompress #{ 789C0BCE0BAB4A7176CA48CAB53448740FABF474F3720BCC B6F4F574CFC888342AC949CE74B50500E1710C0C24000000}

 [6/20] from: joel:neely:fedex at: 6-Oct-2000 11:43


Hi, Petr, Actually, I believe we are in violent agreement about almost everything you said! I'm exerting MASSIVE amounts of self-control not to copy your entire note and insert "YES!" after every sentence. With that said... [Petr--Krenzelok--trz--cz] wrote:
[...points of STRONG agreement snipped...]
> The project should introduce top matrice for other projects as rebmail > for e.g. But really - I would still prefer seeing modules introduced > in REBOL rather than all that file & co requesters, as without it, we > can't know how it will affect our general aproach we are about to > introduce. >
You're right that details of future REBOL features -- modules, components, or whatever -- could affect (for good OR for ill) any code-sharing tools we may define and build. We need to keep that firmly in mind. But... 1) I assume that these postulated future features will be language extensions to make code re-use simpler AT THE CODING LEVEL. My experience with OO and code re-use is that, even when the language and/or development environment have mechanisms to allow/support/promote code re-use, that FINDING THE RIGHT PIECE OF CODE TO RE-USE is still a significant problem, and is made worse as the inventory of re-usable code grows larger. That was more the central issue of my proposal. 2) As much as I'd like to see a module! type, some enhancements to the current object! type (or a new datatype that provides added services), and other things we could add (such as a fix for the extended context GC bug...), we don't know the timeline for those things. I'm making the leap of faith that a distributed code repository that would support the current state of REBOL/Core could be extended/enhanced/modified to take advantage of any new capabilities RT subsequently provides. And (let me hasten to be fair!), RT has a lot on their to-do list! If it came to a choice between just the three above, I'd be happy to see all their attention go to bug-killing before designing/building new language features. BY THE WAY -- THANKS, CARL, FOR THE NEW USERS' GUIDE! IT'S A MAJOR STEP FORWARD! 3) If we could persuade RT that we have a critical mass of developers who will help solve the "social engineering" problem of (1), they might be willing to do one or more of the following (and I'd be willing personally to sign a non-disclosure agreement if that's what it took): 3.1) Give us hints about the timeline for the futures of (2), 3.2) Give us hints about what's coming so we don't paint ourselves into too much of a corner, 3.3) Tell us what's coming so we can plan for it explicitly, 3.4) Work with us to let each effort help influence the features and schedule of the other.
> Still - is here anyone who remembers Dick Whitings set of automatic > installation, localisation, extended help, examples, various category > function libraries etc? It's still the most complete set of script and > concepts introduced to REBOL. We should build something similar .... >
I believe I saw a URL for it many months ago (and looked at it briefly), but would be VERY grateful if someone could re-post it. IIRC it was oriented toward REBOL/Core/1.x and contained - some features now in /Core - some routines that would need to be rewritten due to 1.x-vs-2.x language changes - a generous collection of still-very-useful tools So, bringing up to date would be A Good Thing. Of course that begs the questions, "Where would we put it, how would people find it, and which part of it does what I need right now (without my having to read all of the source)?" Those are the kinds of issues my proposal was intended to address. -jn- -- ; Joel Neely [joel--neely--fedex--com] 901-263-4460 38017/HKA/9677 REBOL [] print to-string debase decompress #{ 789C0BCE0BAB4A7176CA48CAB53448740FABF474F3720BCC B6F4F574CFC888342AC949CE74B50500E1710C0C24000000}

 [7/20] from: joel:neely:fedex at: 6-Oct-2000 11:53


Hi, Ted, Good thoughts, all. [news--ted--husted--com] wrote:
> If I get your high-concept, REBster would track which scripts you have > installed, and their dependancies. If something was needed, it would
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
> them if requested, and rollback if things break (including itself of > course).
Ultimately, yes. Initially, I'd be happy to start with some distributed or web-based way to FIND OUT what's available, even if it's all browser- based. There's also a real learning value in just being able to read well-done code, even if I have no intention of loading and running it. The script library on www.rebol.com is a great resource, but there are lots of other resources I only learned about because people mentioned them on this list. (And I'm sure there are others of which I'm totally ignorant.) Maybe the first cut at REBster could be more like a Reb-hoo!
> BobR did some seminal work in the vien of configuring scripts with his > update of Andrews Wiki script.
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>
> directory could also provide name and version management so that each > script can be uniquely identified.
No doubt.
> I can contribute the server space, including a domain if we want to > take one out, along with the nuts and bolts management. (My programming > talents pale in present company.) > > Of course, we might also put this on SourceForge for better exposure. > (Hey! How about REBOL/View CVS client.) >
Both great ideas! -jn- -- ; Joel Neely [joel--neely--fedex--com] 901-263-4460 38017/HKA/9677 REBOL [] print to-string debase decompress #{ 789C0BCE0BAB4A7176CA48CAB53448740FABF474F3720BCC B6F4F574CFC888342AC949CE74B50500E1710C0C24000000}

 [8/20] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 7-Oct-2000 0:13


----- Original Message ----- From: <[joel--neely--fedex--com]> To: <[list--rebol--com]> Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 6:43 PM Subject: [REBOL] Open source project Re:(2)
> Hi, Petr, > > Actually, I believe we are in violent agreement about almost everything > you said! I'm exerting MASSIVE amounts of self-control not to copy your > entire note and insert "YES!" after every sentence. > > With that said...
Thanks :-)
> 3) If we could persuade RT that we have a critical mass of developers > who will help solve the "social engineering" problem of (1), they
<<quoted lines omitted: 6>>
> 3.4) Work with us to let each effort help influence the features and > schedule of the other.
Exactly the same here! I thought things like file managers, date pickers, etc. higher level stuff are stuff for the community to do. I think we could donate such script components, modules or plug-ins to RT for free to use. It would be much more pleasant to see RT stating: 2.5 introducing modules, next release adding enhancement to parse, fixing bug No.XY, extending suggestion of how to write plug-ins in system compliant way, you will be able to buy, math, and DB2 component next month, etc .... simply step by step improvements to Core technology, its efficiency, distributed functionality, simply enhancing infrastructure=ground=matrice of the product. Sometimes it seems to me REBOL releases are a little bit inconsistent. I know I am talking experimentals here, but it lasts only some tens of seconds until I can find new bug, or some thing which worked last release being broken in new one. Some of bugs are telling me it can't be tested or it would have to be seen as a bug immediately. .... I just don't know how to help the situation, except sending tons of things to Bo, 'da men behind the [feedback--rebol--com] address :-), so I am better preparing for some article on REBOL, but my skepticism will not go away if things will remain as they are nowadays ... ... sometimes I feel we (community) are excluded from the communication about rebol, even in areas where NDAs, strategy e.c. is not concerned ...
> > > > Still - is here anyone who remembers Dick Whitings set of automatic
<<quoted lines omitted: 14>>
> the source)?" Those are the kinds of issues my proposal was intended > to address.
OK, I mentioned it here only as an example. Dick introduced complete infrastructure for help, examples, localisation. It doesn't matter if there was function X or Y available - for me - the functionality of architecture was important ... -pekr-

 [9/20] from: news:ted:husted at: 6-Oct-2000 21:17


On 10/7/2000 at 12:13 AM [petr--krenzelok--trz--cz] wrote:
> ... sometimes I feel we (community) are excluded from the
communication about rebol, even in areas where NDAs, strategy e.c. is not concerned ... This is very true. No other software community is so secretive that the principals won't even provide such basics as a buglist, knowledgebase, or specification. Everything else about REBOL is so very right, yet they get this very basic and obvious thing so very wrong. -Ted.

 [10/20] from: tim:johnsons-web at: 7-Oct-2000 8:31


Ted: I agree, and it is this secretiveness that holds me back from my investment (time and monetarily) in such a good product. (i.e.: using VBA as the starting point, and rebol as as the delivery point for a project and rebol is SO much more productive) I do have a sense of deja vu here though.... and I'm wondering if what we see may have something to do with possibility that if rebol is funded with venture capital, sometimes the investors have influence comparable in weight to that of the visionaries and the developers. Not trying to defend, just to understand. But I do wish this strategy would change. Be good for all. MTCW -Tim [news--ted--husted--com] wrote:

 [11/20] from: news:ted:husted at: 7-Oct-2000 17:19


On 10/7/2000 at 8:31 AM [tim--johnsons-web--com] wrote:
> I do have a sense of deja vu here though.... and I'm wondering if
what we see may have something to do with possibility that if rebol is funded with venture capital, sometimes the investors have influence comparable in weight to that of the visionaries and the developers. The marketplace won't accept a product without these facilities, which doesn't serve the investor's interest. Everyone publishes knowledgebases and bug reports, including Sun and Microsoft. There has also always been the opportunity to post these at arms-length from the main Web site, at REBOL.ORG, as is done with the list archives, but that has never been done either. -Ted.

 [12/20] from: tim:johnsons-web at: 8-Oct-2000 8:45


Hi Ted: [news--ted--husted--com] wrote:
> On 10/7/2000 at 8:31 AM [tim--johnsons-web--com] wrote: > > I do have a sense of deja vu here though.... and I'm wondering if
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>
> main Web site, at REBOL.ORG, as is done with the list archives, but > that has never been done either.
Of course I agree with you Ted. Without qualification. And this agreement is shared with other folks monitoring rebol's progress. I think there would be more usage of rebol if they were more forthcoming. Perhaps someone at rebol may be reading this. I don't want to name names, but I believe that there are differening opinions within the rebol team. Hopefully the best judgement will prevail. Regards Tim

 [13/20] from: carl:rebol at: 10-Oct-2000 18:04


Let me say something here... We are not secretive. We are short on time. Extremely so. With the number of products we deal with, multiplied by the number of systems they run on, we are stretched to the max. You're not dealing with Microsoft or Sun here. We are a small company. The fact that we've accomplished so much to date is because we strongly believe in what we are doing. Since I began REBOL, I have written thousands of pages of docs, tens of thousands of lines of code, over 100,000 emails, dozens of useful utilities and scripts, hundreds of web pages, hundreds of examples, dozens of press interviews, and a few articles. Other members of the REBOL Team have contributed in similar ways, and some of you in the REBOL community have also contributed. All of you have benefited from these efforts. As a venture backed company that pays its engineers so they can work on their software designs full time rather than just on weekends & late nights as a hobbyist, we need to make money. Yes, we believe in our product and we believe in the REBOL community. Could we do more for our community? I'm absolutely sure that we could. However, right now, we've got to focus on REBOL the Company. We have to get our REBOL commercial products finished and into the hands of paying customers. That is the reality of what we are doing. Will these commercial products be of benefit to you, you can bet on it. No, we won't be giving away REBOL/Express. If you want Express, you'll have to buy it, and let me warn you, it's not cheap. REBOL/Express serves a critical need in the world of Internet based business, and we are going to charge for that. However, the building of REBOL/Express will require additional functions and features be developed for our core software. Features like multitasking, modules, view, graphics, audio, streaming media, dynamic components, and developer tools are all essential, and they will be pushed seriously by commercial REBOL applications. As REBOL grows as a company, so too will the features of all its products. With regard to the specifics of buglists, knowledge-bases, and specs: I'm for it. But help me out because I don't have the time or peoplepower to do everything for everybody. Like I said: I've been focusing on YOU for four years now. I've had no life, just you. Now, you've got to help me focus on REBOL the company. That is truly the most rewarding path to the future, for all of us. A REBOL as always, -Carl Sassenrath Founder & CTO REBOL Technologies At 10/8/00 08:45 AM -0800, you wrote:

 [14/20] from: lmecir:geocities at: 11-Oct-2000 8:19


Hi Rebols, ...
> With regard to the specifics of buglists, knowledge-bases, and specs: I'm
for it. But help me out because I don't have the time or peoplepower to do everything for everybody. Like I said: I've been focusing on YOU for four years now. I've had no life, just you. Now, you've got to help me focus on REBOL the company. That is truly the most rewarding path to the future, for all of us.
> A REBOL as always, > > -Carl Sassenrath > Founder & CTO > REBOL Technologies >
If I understood correctly, we should build a bug-list ourselves. I would like to help with that. Where should it reside?

 [15/20] from: al:bri:xtra at: 11-Oct-2000 1:05


Carl [A REBOL as always] Sassenrath wrote:
> > With regard to the specifics of buglists, knowledge-bases, and specs:
I'm for it. But help me out because I don't have the time or peoplepower to do everything for everybody. Like I said: I've been focusing on YOU for four years now. I've had no life, just you. Now, you've got to help me focus on REBOL the company. That is truly the most rewarding path to the future, for all of us. lmecir wrote:
> If I understood correctly, we should build a bug-list ourselves.
I agree. This is really needed. Remember the problem with 'for? It's still not fixed!
> I would like to help with that.
Me too!
> Where should it reside?
Somewhere stable and reliable, or many unstable and/or unreliable sites so as to mirror it and reduce the load on Rebol Company's servers. We could use http://www.nbci.com, they work reasonably well. Other suggestions? Perhaps the people that were offering sites that run Rebol as CGI could supply it? Andrew Martin ICQ: 26227169 http://members.nbci.com/AndrewMartin/

 [16/20] from: rishi:picostar at: 11-Oct-2000 0:37


Hi Carl. This all sounds really sweet (... multitasking, modules, view, graphics, audio, streaming media, dynamic components, and developer tools ... are you serious?!) ...but... I would simply like to know what REBOL plans to give away for free and if there is any pricing plan for individual users rather than companys. Here are some questions I have: 1. will rebol/view be free for community to use or should we expect costs approx. in same league as rebol/command? 2. Is there any pricing model in works for individual users programming for non-profit? As a student, I suppose I could dish out $50 or so bucks for quality software (for non-profit use without encription)...Are there any additional products (other than core) that I can expect to purchase(at my price budget) or download for free in the future? I love rebol and am excited about all the cool stuff that is being worked on. I also understand that REBOL Tech. needs to make money in order to provide me with all this stuff (and I do hope you make lots of money!)... But in the end, it is just not practical for me to invest time/effort ( I probably will anyway since it is so cool and I am so impractical ... a rebel..) in, say, REBOL/View if it will cost $500 or so. Guess I just want to have quality fun for a cheap price... Will that be possible? What does the REBOL future look like for individual, non-profit users? just wondering... Rishi Previously, you ([carl--rebol--com]) wrote:

 [17/20] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 11-Oct-2000 10:02


[lmecir--geocities--com] wrote:
> Hi Rebols, > ...
<<quoted lines omitted: 13>>
> If I understood correctly, we should build a bug-list ourselves. I would > like to help with that. Where should it reside?
rebol.cz finally? :-) -pekr-

 [18/20] from: dgardiner:cwcom at: 11-Oct-2000 11:32


On 11-Oct-00 [carl--rebol--com] wrote:
> Let me say something here... > We are not secretive. We are short on time. Extremely so. With the number
<<quoted lines omitted: 36>>
> Founder & CTO > REBOL Technologies
I suspect that every subscriber to this list appreciates RT's need to satisfy their investors desire to see a return on their investment, and the probable pressures they exert to see this happen sooner rather than later. It is clear from the posts to this list that people would like to use REBOL in their regular jobs, not as hackers/hobbyists but as people who see a good product which they can demonstrate works but unfortunately cannot show their employers/clients where it is going. I am sure that we all appreciate the efforts you have put in, but if supporting so many products on so many platforms poses a threat to the long term viability of REBOL perhaps releases of the free of charge products should be frozen until REBOL/Express is shipped as a commercial product. You say 'help me out', how! Do you just want us to sit back and keep quiet, act as testers, or become really involved in pushing REBOL forward? I would be happy to help in any way I can as long as it is actively rather than passively. Rebmail seemed to be a good way of creating an awareness of REBOL, your specification was excellent it makes one wonder what could be in REBOL/Express which would not be in Rebmail, but does not seem to be moving forward very quickly, perhaps we are all talk and no do. Regards ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Derek Gardiner <[dgardiner--cwcom--net]> Date: 11-Oct-00 Time: 10:13:09

 [19/20] from: mjmalpha:localnet at: 11-Oct-2000 9:23


Carl & RT: I grok your drift, man. Just ordered two REBOL/Command licenses for my company. Regards, Mike Mastroianni LepCorp, Inc. ----- Original Message ----- From: <[carl--rebol--com]> To: <[list--rebol--com]> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 9:04 PM Subject: [REBOL] Open source project Re:(8)
> Let me say something here... > > We are not secretive. We are short on time. Extremely so. With the
number of products we deal with, multiplied by the number of systems they run on, we are stretched to the max. You're not dealing with Microsoft or Sun here. We are a small company. The fact that we've accomplished so much to date is because we strongly believe in what we are doing.
> Since I began REBOL, I have written thousands of pages of docs, tens
of thousands of lines of code, over 100,000 emails, dozens of useful utilities and scripts, hundreds of web pages, hundreds of examples, dozens of press interviews, and a few articles. Other members of the REBOL Team have contributed in similar ways, and some of you in the REBOL community have also contributed. All of you have benefited from these efforts.
> As a venture backed company that pays its engineers so they can work
on their software designs full time rather than just on weekends & late nights as a hobbyist, we need to make money. Yes, we believe in our product and we believe in the REBOL community. Could we do more for our community? I'm absolutely sure that we could. However, right now, we've got to focus on REBOL the Company. We have to get our REBOL commercial products finished and into the hands of paying customers. That is the reality of what we are doing.
> Will these commercial products be of benefit to you, you can bet on
it. No, we won't be giving away REBOL/Express. If you want Express, you'll have to buy it, and let me warn you, it's not cheap. REBOL/Express serves a critical need in the world of Internet based business, and we are going to charge for that. However, the building of REBOL/Express will require additional functions and features be developed for our core software. Features like multitasking, modules, view, graphics, audio, streaming media, dynamic components, and developer tools are all essential, and they will be pushed seriously by commercial REBOL applications. As REBOL grows as a company, so too will the features of all its products.
> With regard to the specifics of buglists, knowledge-bases, and specs:
I'm for it. But help me out because I don't have the time or peoplepower to do everything for everybody. Like I said: I've been focusing on YOU for four years now. I've had no life, just you. Now, you've got to help me focus on REBOL the company. That is truly the most rewarding path to the future, for all of us.

 [20/20] from: mccarter:uniserve at: 11-Oct-2000 13:16


I think the main worry here is how much info is shared to the community. Carl has been around the block for a while and I am sure that he has been weighed laid and parlayed, and intimately knows how IT gets stolen so easily in this business. Rebol is a work in progress and we are the lucky beta testers ( and I'm damn glad to be able to use it ). There is 20 years plus of planning that Carl has put into this. The balancing act is very tough as the cost of hiring the highly skilled help to finish such a monumental task and fending off the worries of the Venture Capital, and satisfying the developer community are all pulling in different directions. ( not to mention the high cost of york peppermint patties). I personally would like a support network at least as good as the Novell knowledge base, big bucks to do that, and I am sure that in the future it will happen. I just hope that Rebol makes a large enough splash in the language market to gain and maintain a large market share, the worry is if there appears a r++ or maybe r#, or r## maybe from some big competitor who has infinitely deep pockets... tightrope ..... I believe the caution that we are seeing and the very close playing of the cards are necessary, annoying, but necessary Bill [news--ted--husted--com] wrote:

Notes
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