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Rebol Unity ??

 [1/11] from: jason:cunliffe:verizon at: 19-Mar-2002 19:40


Things are heating up in FlashMX world.. http://www.moock.org/ <quote> unity is a java-based server that manages socket connections initiated by flash's XMLSocket object. using unity, you can write multiuser applications in flash with minimal fuss, and that is good. </quote> What would it take to do a REBOL/Rugby version of moock's Unity? ./Jason

 [2/11] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 20-Mar-2002 6:25


Jason Cunliffe wrote:
>Things are heating up in FlashMX world.. >http://www.moock.org/
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>
>What would it take to do a REBOL/Rugby version of moock's Unity? >./Jason
Hi, so, I just don't understand, what is the point? We have Rebol and Rugby written in Rebol, transparently supported socket architecture thru the ports. We have best Inet language so far. Flash has to use glues ;-) Check the following: 1) pricing please note unity's new (lower) pricing scale! Licence Description Cost professional licence single-domain only, lifetime upgrades, no user limit* USD $700 express licence single-domain only, lifetime upgrades, 100 user limit USD $100 beta promotional licence discount professional licence for qualifying beta participants 1/2 original cost (USD $350/$50) non-commercial licence artist, non-commercial, academic use free trial licence any application with 10 or fewer users free 2) requirements . java 1.2 or higher running on *nix or windows . ability to bind to a port over 1024 3) the size 1.7MB (there is Xerces in archive, which is some kind of XML parser IIRC), but anyway, who cares :-) 4) The site states Unity server is down, they have apparently problem with throughput: unity will be down for a bit while we increase this machine's thread limit. testing is going well...thanks for the help! please reload for progress updates... 5) I would not like to code in something like: http://www.moock.org/unity/clients/unityPush.html I just want to open port, insert port, copy port, close port ;-) -pekr-

 [3/11] from: jason:cunliffe:verizon at: 20-Mar-2002 2:07


Petr Krenzelok <[petr--krenzelok--trz--cz]> wrote
> Hi, so, I just don't understand, what is the point? We have Rebol and > Rugby written in Rebol, transparently supported socket architecture thru > the ports. We have best Inet language so far. Flash has to use glues ;-)
Yes I agree we have best Inet langauge and *that's* why I want to know how to make a killer Unity in Rebol/rugby! /View is not Flash. Flash does somethings very very well. Flash has huge and growing market. new FlashMX does even more [video streaming faster XML] Java is a pain to install and program We even have native make-swf.r Rebol/Unity [rugby-based] for Flash would really put REBOL on the world map.What a great opportunity. What a chance to take a lot of people by surprise. Here download this tiny thing click click.GO owow Imagine how easy to install these socket servers on any machine. How much easier to extend modify link etc.
> Check the following: > 1) pricing
<<quoted lines omitted: 8>>
> non-commercial licence artist, non-commercial, academic use free > trial licence any application with 10 or fewer users free
precisely... Though non-commercail artist + academic is free. How much different from Rebol is that? Colim Moock has given a lot of good work to the Flash community. I don't think anyone begrudges him some payback. But seriously perhaps this is a great chance for rebolers to show the competition, and make some money to support rugby developmnent etc.if they want Maarten are you listening ??
> 2) requirements > . java 1.2 or higher running on *nix or windows > . ability to bind to a port over 1024 > > 3) the size 1.7MB (there is Xerces in archive, which is some kind of XML > parser IIRC), but anyway, who cares :-)
see what I mean :-)
> 4) The site states Unity server is down, they have apparently problem > with throughput: > > "unity will be down for a bit while we increase this machine's thread > limit. testing is going well...thanks for the help! please reload for > progress updates... "
When I conencted they had 300 connections on. Within about 1 hour that had risen to 480. Somethime after that the disconnect message caem up so I guess they went back to work. What can Rugby handle? How far has anyone pushed this?
> 5) I would not like to code in something like: > > http://www.moock.org/unity/clients/unityPush.html > > I just want to open port, insert port, copy port, close port ;-)
show me please Let's do a demo ./Jason

 [4/11] from: jason:cunliffe:verizon at: 20-Mar-2002 12:10


Petr Krenzelok <[petr--krenzelok--trz--cz]>
> the ports. We have best Inet language so far. Flash has to use glues ;-)
RebolMX anyone ?? http://www.devx.com/webdev/reviews/FlashMX/ib030402-2.asp <quote> Server Integration One feature missing from this version of Flash MX is true server application integration, but that's coming. ColdFusion MX, which is expected this summer, is the first market evidence of the merger between Macromedia and Allaire. Consisting of a Flash Application Server Gateway and a Communications server, Flash authors will be able to integrate applications on J2EE and .NET servers, as well as the ColdFusion MX server via a protocol built into the Flash 6 player itself. The application server gateway provides an interface between app servers and the Flash client that goes beyond the useful but inflexible HTTP Get/Post methodology Flash currently provides. Right now, Flash authors must build an intermediary interface to server applications that can accept requests via HTTP. Typically this entails an ASP, PHP, or JSP page that brokers requests to and from a server application. The application server promises to eliminate this middleman. The communication server promises to broker direct inter-client connectivity for applications such as synchronous messaging. In addition, Macromedia will also release Dreamweaver MX, which will add support for additional server and connectivity technologies for Flash and application architects. If you've been creating middle-tier pages to connect Flash clients to servers dynamically, you will be glad to know that you won't have to do that much longer. Until then, Flash MX offers an abundance of new features. </quote>

 [5/11] from: ryanc:iesco-dms at: 20-Mar-2002 11:24


Jason, You should be able to write a much less robust version pretty easy. Show me the specs and one might just appear. Creating a high performance version in REBOL is another deal, probably a forbidding endeavor at this time. I do think you brushed upon an interisting idea, and that is an animation dialect for /View. View is actually very capable to compete with Flash graphics when treated properly. You could probably do a decent job in about 10k. When sound comes to non-commercial View, I would expect with the release of the new Morpheous, it would poised for success. --Ryan Jason Cunliffe wrote:

 [6/11] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 20-Mar-2002 22:19


Ryan Cole wrote:
>Jason, > >You should be able to write a much less robust version pretty easy. Show me the >specs and one might just appear. Creating a high performance version in REBOL is >another deal, probably a forbidding endeavor at this time. >
I think that using Rebol + Rugby as a base is strong enough to start with. Of course, I don't understand fully yet, what are the specs for the Unity and its purpose ...
>I do think you brushed upon an interisting idea, and that is an animation dialect >for /View. View is actually very capable to compete with Flash graphics when >treated properly. >
;-) You want to compare View effects to Flash ones? ;-)
> You could probably do a decent job in about 10k. When sound >comes to non-commercial View, I would expect with the release of the new Morpheous, >it would poised for success. >
Well, if sound is not improved, it will not help imo (at least from what I've seen so far, e.g. Olivier's game which is not playable if sound is turned on) ... -pekr-

 [7/11] from: jason:cunliffe:verizon at: 20-Mar-2002 18:10


> >You should be able to write a much less robust version pretty easy. Show me
the
> >specs and one might just appear. Creating a high performance version in
REBOL is
> >another deal, probably a forbidding endeavor at this time. > > > I think that using Rebol + Rugby as a base is strong enough to start > with. Of course, I don't understand fully yet, what are the specs for > the Unity and its purpose ...
Looking forwards to studying Maarten's nice new article on Rugby :-) I need time to look at Unity specs too. The main idea is exploit Flash XMLSocket functions http://www.macromedia.com/support/flash/action_scripts/objects/xmlsocket_object. html One is not obliged to use XML. Unity does and establishes a framework with some inital modules. http://www.moock.org/unity/
> >I do think you brushed upon an interisting idea, and that is an animation
dialect
> >for /View. View is actually very capable to compete with Flash graphics when > >treated properly.
hmm.. I am not enthusiastic about graphic prospects for Rebol animation. I do not believe that is where Rebol's strength lies. It offers a tiny footprint and just enough basic graphics to provide simple small fast GUI for /View. But there is so much involved to build - timing, media, antialiasing sound, sync, layering, engines, object and event models.. Look at Flash now in version 6 [MX] it takes a mammoth amount of effort to get that far. But it depends what your expectations/needs are. Perhaps one could add an intelligent time-stamping system to support the wonderful draw-dialect work posted recently. Could be used for simple timed slide shows ala SMIL. Perhaps you have some other notion ? I think Oldes has developed a great Rebol animation dialect already. It's called make-swf.r Better imo to build intelligently upon that. Part of doing so includes a rebol based socket server to exploit the XMLObject() connections [Unity replacement built with Rugby] The difference I see is that Rebol can be run small fast and locally, as well as remote and centrally. Which enables collaborative P2P, Group2Group dynamics. Clusterings of persistent animations, interfaces etc. Beyond make-swf.r, the most interesting aspect to me of a REBOL animation dialect would be exploiting Rebol's innate talents for message passing. Using it to broker display events among people. For now, let Flash handle the media rendering and smooth interactivity, let REBOL connect them together and explore the important new architectural issues of net life beyond the browser. ./Jason

 [8/11] from: cyphre:seznam:cz at: 21-Mar-2002 11:34


Hi Jason, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Cunliffe" <[jason--cunliffe--verizon--net]> To: <[rebol-list--rebol--com]> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 12:10 AM Subject: [REBOL] Re: Rebol Unity ?? ... For now, let Flash handle the media rendering and smooth
> interactivity, let REBOL connect them together and explore the important
new
> architectural issues of net life beyond the browser.
I think we should heavy support /View and not depending on Flash. View engine has far more better base technology and it is in some aspects comparable and even better with Flash.(Please, take in mind that /View graphics is version 1.1 and flash at version 6). I know Flash have antialiasing, rotation, better and free sound but this and more could be relatively easily implemented also in View. It is up to us, testers, developers, rebol users, customers to show RT the problems/possibilities so they will be more concentrate on all that improvements. as Carl said: "Yes, REBOL could be a competitor to Flash... I would like to see that happen." on my /View enhancments suggestions: "Carl: Yes... we've got many of the same ideas for what to do. In fact, things like Streaming are pretty high on our list... and much of it has been done, just not released." regards, Cyphre PS: IMO even now it is possible to make multimedia stuff in View (check http://www.rebol.cz/~cyphre/arcadia.r)

 [9/11] from: ljurado:bariloche:ar at: 21-Mar-2002 12:47


Hi, Jason Have you seen the RMOOCKS.R and REBAHAWA work on the TOMATOREB rebsite? Luis

 [10/11] from: jason:cunliffe:verizon at: 21-Mar-2002 12:16


Jason:
> ... For now, let Flash handle the media rendering and smooth > > interactivity, let REBOL connect them together and explore the important > new > > architectural issues of net life beyond the browser.
Cyphre:
> I think we should heavy support /View and not depending on Flash. View > engine has far more better base technology and it is in some aspects
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>
> developers, rebol users, customers to show RT the problems/possibilities so > they will be more concentrate on all that improvements.
I agree with that but fear its not enough .. My argument is that REBOL's real strength lies in opening up new architectures and uses quickly. This is the wide open frontier now, where a few clever people and good ideas can succeed. Focus on what REBOL can do really well right now ==> rapid network mesasging. Rugby and Vanilla seem to me the shining jewels. [And of course many aspects of /View and what I've heard about IOS] I am not trying to corrupt Rebol or weaken it. I really respect everyone here and RT for developing something different and wonderful. I want everyone to succeed. There are true intellectual pleasures in learning Rebol, but it is also intended to be useful in the world. And that means working with existing protocols and formats. Nobody complains that Rebol is used with PNG or JPEG, nntp or http... So why not equally apply the same pragmatism to SWF ? SWF is going to be so widespread and people are going to want/neeed these apps to talk to each other in nwe and interseting ways. Gee we need a cool lightweight cross platform messaging language to do that. Then we can scale from PDAs to settop boxes to phone kiosks to vending machines to web servers and desktops.Wonder what we can use? I am sure there is much more /View can and hopefully will do.. and soon. But it takes heavy time and resources to do all that. Plus useful *documtentation* which is not RT best point so far. And books and articles ...Plus community growth and learning curve time. Having a great technology alone is not enough as we know. Like DNA it needs an environemnt, time, context and resources to grow. Rebol community is great, but so small and that makes it very fragile/vulnerable. Pricing, licensing and standalone executable options are all unresolved and confusing topics still. Any system of messaging which uses /View graphics should also think about embracing Flash along with it. Why? It opens the market significantly and demonstrates the virtues of Rebol, including IOS. Taking your scenario, if I show RT a cool network application which uses /View but also some slick Flash integration, they are might react like this: a: "No thanks we don't want to depend in any way or develop anything which works with Flash - goodbye" [goes off to develop new miracle/view or stick head in sand] a: "Yes Nice thank you well done good idea" b: "Yes Very nice but hmm.. hey you know we really ought to improve /View to Flash's level or better". Meanwhile MM with Flash seem to be making in-roads towards Rebol domain much faster than the other way around. Flash already has an uncomplicated .exe capability [Mac adn Windows], and MM have finally grokked to the idea of using Flash heavily beyond the browser. All their products are now geared towards supporting some kind of Flash networking with streaming, multiuser. They are quite sensibly improving the circle of client and server side interactive scripting and message passing using Flash. FlashMX [version 6 out now] is the shift, next version next summer will be the better fruit. This next 12 months is very critical imo for REBOL. And it has a great opportunity right now if it exploits and opens up it potential uses to the Flash market [but not depending upon it]. MEANWHILE, if RT and others can really deliver on /View improvements they have 1 year to get it together. Imagine for a moment if someone told you Flash .exe file could now bundle REBOL in it. Interested ?? Cyphre
> as Carl said: "Yes, REBOL could be a competitor to Flash... I would like to > see that happen." > on my /View enhancments suggestions: "Carl: Yes... we've got many of the > same ideas for what to do. In fact, things like Streaming are pretty high > on our list... and much of it has been done, just not released."
Great news indeed. I would love to see it! Let's hope they find the resources, time and money to test document and deliver. It would be nice if they were even participating in this discussion. ./Jason

 [11/11] from: jason:cunliffe:verizon at: 21-Mar-2002 12:30


> Have you seen the RMOOCKS.R and REBAHAWA work on the TOMATOREB rebsite? > > Luis
No. Luis thanks very much! Seems to be about a year old ./Jason

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