How to get Rebol forward ... (was) Re: Re: SVG dialect project
[1/11] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 27-Apr-2003 16:24
Hi Robert, well, I would like to look at the problem from the more abstracted pov ....
>Petr, please just let's move in small steps and small visions because I >know that you see this problem in even more global aspects ;-)). But we >didn't made it in the small yet... >
Ah, maybe not then :-) Well, just kidding ... But the reason is - there is imo no community effort - it all starts by individuals making thingX or thingY and others just join. The only project with some level of collaboration is just VID, but it just sleeps right now ... There is no REBOL business except maybe RT, some of Reichart's efforts and maybe Steve's eFishAntSea :-) So - we all do rebol as our hobby, or just part-time job. How many developers is active on this ml? Very few imo - so if our community is hundreds times lower than e.g. Python's, let's not suppose we can do much. Well, one thing is Rebol related projects, other thing is Rebol itself - we have not seen many advancements to core technology last two years. So - even RT itself may have limited resources so that they rather concentrate upon port to OSx than bringing in new features, making ppl feel afresh (do you remember that excitement when there was some advancement did to View? :-) So how to fix it? Can we? We can't imo ... the only thing left is to take our little steps and proceed. We are slow and late on every front ... Look, I don't like to fail myself too - I promissed Carl to invest my time to coordinate VID project - the thing is - there is noone to coordinate currently ;-) Let's take e.g. Cyphre - he is now blocked for nearly two months already, because of his main job he is paid for. That is the reality ... As for me, I am trying to do my small steps too. Apart from my current job (which I leave usually at 4 - 6 hours p.m.), we slowly work towards our products relese with Xidys, and in two weeks we hope we win the contract for some kiosk systems + IOS based regional info system. And I still have some books to read, concepts to outline, etc. etc. - just where to take enough of free time? I think that for the situation to become more vital and generating some excitement, we imo need RT get back to more often beta releases, incorporating various enhancements and patches done by community, adding some core stuff, take some time for stabilisation, and go for official release. Ppl will try new stuff, add some ideas, start new projects to see how things work out, etc. - without the feeling of something fresh, everything is more difficult to achieve ... Carl could e.g. set-up a word/IOS server for various project purposes, assign coordinators, which would organise development. Except VID, I can imagine community rewriting protocols for e.g. to have async networking. IIRC Gabriele e.g. expressed his willingness to go something in that regards. We should use that potential, if available. But! - it is absolutely needed, that someone from RT monitors such activities, encourages them ... more than once per two months e.g. ;-) Without basic technology advancement - there is no add-on advancement :-) So has anyone even more "refreshing" ideas to offer, e.g. how to get attracted more developers to use rebol? :-) -pekr-
[2/11] from: alanwall:sonic at: 27-Apr-2003 10:23
At 04:24 PM 4/27/03 +0200, Petr wrote:
[3/11] from: maarten:koopmans:surfnet:nl at: 27-Apr-2003 22:05
Supporting wath Alan said, I'd like to add that most things are done by (small groups of) focussed individuals. For example, PDF-maker, MySQL, Rugby.... This is the same in other communities, there just more individuals and better portals. The library has made a great step forward, and once the conten is cleaned up everything will work better. --Maarten
[4/11] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 27-Apr-2003 16:35
Good to see people still thinking about how to improve things! I don't have any great answers, but I'll chip in with some thoughts. Fragmentation is both good and bad. It means we have options, and different ways of looking at things. It can also lead to confusion when it isn't clear if they are all attempting to be compatible, or what the reasons are for each to exist. There is always an ebb and flow to things, so we can't let the slow times get us down. I'm not very active in the public forums right now because I'm readying a product for beta. The software is all REBOL, and there are hardware elements as well. So, while it might appear that I'm not doing much, I'm actually doing a lot with, and for, REBOL. My current schedule also means that the library project is kind of on hold at the moment (Sunanda is off line for a while as well). We have great hopes for it, but we still have a bit to do before it becomes really useful. The hard part with lots of projects - those that take any significant amount of time that is - is that you need someone to lead them. Usually, one or two people start a project, then others will join, but you need the people with the vision for a long time. That takes commitment; and it's easy to over-commit. I have tons of projects I want to do, but I have to focus (which I'm not very good at sometimes :) on just a few at a time. Time is a big issue. I don't think manpower is so much of an issue though. I.e. 2 or 3 people can do a lot with REBOL. Communication is very important, and that's where the fragmentation may hurt us most. I hope Graham's new wiki does well and, eventually, we'll get the library to a state where it's a useful tool as well, along with the other sites and tools people are using now. To sum up, I can see lots of room for improvement, but I don't think things are all that bad right now. :) -- Gregg
[5/11] from: gchiu:compkarori at: 28-Apr-2003 11:27
On Sun, 27 Apr 2003 16:24:06 +0200 Petr Krenzelok <[petr--krenzelok--trz--cz]> wrote:
>But the reason is - there is imo no community effort - it >all starts by individuals making thingX or thingY and >others just join. The only project with some level of >collaboration is just VID, but it just sleeps right now >...
Well, I have to disagree. Some of us only see the bright side, others only see the dark side :) On the REP site we can see: Gabriele and Ladislav collaborating somewhat on Gabriele's new dialect Ladislav's essays now have a greater audience New tutorials up which are being read as well ( according to Vanilla statistics ) SVG dialect started by Terry ( input from Chris RG, myself and others ) Make-doc enhancements - Chris RG, myself, Terry etc Vanilla enhancements - Myself, Earl, Chris RG And others I might have missed. -- Graham Chiu http://www.compkarori.com/vanilla REP co-ordinator
[6/11] from: tbrownell:L3TECHNOLOGY at: 28-Apr-2003 8:01
Given the few developers out there, why not form a new company of developers, distribute some shares and profit, thus making it all worthwhile. TB
[7/11] from: robert:muench:robertmuench at: 28-Apr-2003 17:48
> -----Original Message----- > From: [rebol-bounce--rebol--com] [mailto:[rebol-bounce--rebol--com]]
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>> Re: SVG dialect project > Fragmentation is both good and bad. It means we have options,
Hi, fragmentation and options are two different things IMO. That's why I used the word fragmentation. Fragmentation to me is, doing things that are related in a way, without any interface between those actions. On the other hand, closer related projects give the user options that are understandable. Example from your other mail:
> Your MDP is constrained by your copyright.
Well, I don't see it as a constraint, the copyright is quite weak. Further I haven't been contacted by anyone yet and I think the long term members of this mailing list know that I won't be picky about this kind of stuff. But you still see it as a problem and those things need to be addressed then. Anyway, IMO we have fragmention now. I have discussed some topics concerning Chris' make-doc version with him. He provides code etc. That's good and he helped me a lot with some issued for MDP. But wouldn't it be "better" to align those projects? Now I hear you say: Hey, right, so why don't you do it... Well, in terms of MDP I have tried with RT. Chris, IIRC we talked about it but never went down to the point. RT has some complains on MDP, but we didn't cleared them out too. Of course it's not easy to achieve and it's always a give and take from all. Don't get me wrong, I don't critize the community. The Rebol community is very cool! But I think we could do better on the fragmentation side. Maybe we should spend more efforts on consolidating the major Rebol projects. I'm trying to do so for IOS. We will see...
> The hard part with lots of projects - those that take any > significant amount of time that is - is that you need someone > to lead them.
Correct, but leading as project is mostly doable, implementing is hard, there more ressources are needed. The problem I see is, is that good projects really take a lot of effort and doing it in spare time is hard. You can do this maybe if you are a student ;-)) but not if you have a real-life job.
> Time is a big issue. I don't think manpower is so much of an > issue though. I.e. 2 or 3 people can do a lot with REBOL. > Communication is very important, and that's where the > fragmentation may hurt us most.
I see manpower as an issue. You need to allocate it and concentrate on your project. And convincing people to join your efforts while spending their free time is quite hard. I have thought about this the past few days, and I will change my pattern: I'm going to contract those people. I think this will speed things up. On the other hand, this means a business component is now major focus. But IMO this is not bad.
> To sum up, I can see lots of room for improvement, but I > don't think things are all that bad right now. :)
Things aren't bad at the moment but I'm sure we will stuck with our loved technology and don't make any significant progress if we don't try to look at other (non technology) issues too. Robert
[8/11] from: petr::krenzelok::trz::cz at: 28-Apr-2003 17:44
Terry Brownell wrote:
>Given the few developers out there, why not form a new company of >developers, distribute some shares and profit, thus making it all >worthwhile. >
I have a company, although part-time job one, but we want to produce professional level results. Even our first project will generate some small amount of money, so some helpfull czech reboller can get paid few bucks (to be freed from flash etc. work :-) .... we will see ... If you think some mySQL AB kind of a company - I think that if Doc, Maarten and Gabriele put their efforts together, there could be uniserve, sporting full async kernel, powered with higher level protocols, as a base for better IOS ... and me + Robert could add some ideas for workflows, rules & roles, etc. That could be a killer product ... but it would probably put IOS on hold, so some clever business model would have to be established, to keep stream of funds for RT ... -pekr-
[9/11] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 28-Apr-2003 11:22
>> Fragmentation is both good and bad. It means we have options,
RMM> Hi, fragmentation and options are two different things IMO. That's why I RMM> used the word fragmentation. Fragmentation to me is, doing things that RMM> are related in a way, without any interface between those actions. Got it. I often don't know how carefully a particular word was chosen. In this case, I guess I'm also not clear on how the items are related other than being based on RT MakeDoc dialect. I guess this points back at fragmentation. :) Maybe a page on the new REP site with an entry for each MakeDoc related tool, why it came to be, what it's goals are, etc? RMM> Example from your other mail:
>> Your MDP is constrained by your copyright.
Not from my mail. I've thought about how a dedicated IOS server could be an incredible resource for people to collaborate, much like the Developer server - an IOS SourceForge. With Gabriele's company offering IOS hosting, it's a viable option now. I know that's one more fragment in the picture, but I don't think it should be done on an RT goverened server. It will take time, effort, and a little bit of money, which is why I haven't done it yet, but I still want to. I haven't had time to look at Graham's new REP site too deeply, but I'm hoping it will pick up some momentum as well. -- Gregg
[10/11] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 28-Apr-2003 20:20
Hi, while not exactly on-topic or at least MDP related, I think that what is also bad is almost nonexistant communication with RT. Where are those times when we could see posts by jeff, sterling, holger, carl here? So time ago I asked Carl to post some news, as his messages always drag some attention. So Developer's update was posted shorty after. I think that posting few encouraging words from time to time would not hurt, but then maybe there is nothing interesting enough to be informed about? ;-) -pekr-
[11/11] from: robert:muench:robertmuench at: 28-Apr-2003 21:10
> -----Original Message----- > From: [rebol-bounce--rebol--com] [mailto:[rebol-bounce--rebol--com]]
<<quoted lines omitted: 6>>> company of developers, distribute some shares and profit, > thus making it all worthwhile.
Hi, in general this sounds good but you don't get such a company for free. Who is going to do the base investment? As said, I'm thinking about a concept, where people from the community have a channel to get access to a commercial Rebol market (that means, to projects that are done with Rebol). We will see... Robert
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