[REBOL] Re: Incomplete Documentation was: [RE: Re: nntp question]
From: geza67:freestart:hu at: 31-Aug-2001 21:07
>sorry for the long post.
Sorry for my long & exhaustive reflection, too :-))
> I am a reboler since version 1.x and I am seriously addicted, there is
> no doubt on that.
I wandered through plenty of languages as well, from the programmers'
C - Pascal, through Forth, VB. Made shorter-longer
excursions with Prolog (I still honor the AI paradigm but most of my
ideas really don't need it), Haskell, LISP-Scheme. Then came REBOL
which is a strange phenomenon being semantically feminine (i.e. highly
unpredictable ;-) (at least compared to pure lambda-originated LISP &
alikes), iteration-based (I read somewhere that the tail recursion was
dropped due to efficiency issues :-(( ) having some functional flares
and a unique congruency between data and program code (not a
macro-like semi-solution for self-modifying code).
> guides because its clear that currently There are MUCH MORE things under
> the hood of rebol than is documented. Not everyone has the time (Yes
> its PAINFULLY slow) nor the ability to deciphre code by printing it
> out... especially the code from RT which is quite frankly scary
> (although enlightning)!
I know it is blasphemy to compare the REBOLution & RT to microsofty
;-) but the issue is quite the same: RT and ms, they both KNOW their
intellectual child from toe to scalp and use such "evil" shortcuts
that we mere humans (hmmm, mere UNDERINFORMED humans ...) could only
> /View by itself is PAINFULLY under-documented. It seems that every
Actually I put a similar letter to yours in the circulation some
months ago, with the intention of making some waves and a little bit of
awareness & beneficial rage that many of REBOLers have PAID for this
product AND get really warm and friendly but essentially useless
handshakes from RT people instead of a solid documentation covering:
- the execution paradigm of REBOL (I think it is a shame, that a
non-RT outsider guru, L.Mecir elucidated REBOL word/value bindig
pointing out some conceptual errors of the _official_ Core Guide (PDF)
(by RT itself ... of course ...)
- by now undocumented but being-there (& used-by-RT) functions
- View - its underdocumented nature IMHO severely burdens REBOL's
widespread use for major projects needing FULL understanding of the
underlying GUI paradigm.
- low-level internet (TCP/IP) protocol and port programming
> serious question gets answered here on this list, but man... how did all
> of you guys (and gals ?) figure out all of this, imagine the time
write %system.r mold system ;-)))
> languages... I learned rebol before I knew Python existed... but if I
> had known about both at the same time....
Yes, that's the painful experience I lived through, too! The issue
between e.g. Python and REBOL is striking: Python is FREE, has lots of
modules (When will get REBOL a REAL module/dependecy support - I
think, it's a long way ...), possibility of byte-compiling and binary
packaging, system-level library (even COM!) and shell access, standard
GUI wrapping (Tkinter) just to name a few virtues. Then, you could ask
why haven't I converted to Python? Python is very tempting but REBOL
is smarter. Although there is a lot in Python at the language-level
(on module level - availability of all kinds of pluggable goodies - it
beats REBOL in a hiss ;-) ) like REAL object-orientation (not just
structure cloning and formal encapsulation which is IMHO a very silly
and primitive approach in REBOL; but classes/instances, multiple
inheritance as well), rich (but a bit awkward) list comprehension. On
the other side, it's file handling is merely conventional, there is no
possibility of extending the language with control structures or
alikes, no macro support (no possibility of mixing data and code :-(((
), no intuitive _builtin_ data types (like date, url, path etc.in
REBOL). Although Tk is a bit old-fashioned GUI-delegate, it is solid
and deeply documented ...
> But then, Ive been an amigan since 1991 (programmed heavily on it :-)
> and I consider Carl A god ;-) ... so It feels like the same than back
I was an AtariSTan thus I don't have this superhuman prejudice :-)))
Carl et al are smart at computing but I am still afraid that REBOL
will have a similar fate like the rise and fall of Betamax against VHS
;-((( Maybe we should learn some open source language as well to be
future-proof ?? ;-)
> This is NOT a flame for RT, its just the expression of the only problem
> I face with rebol day in and day out.
> "Contrary to popular belief, Unix IS user-friendly...
> its just picky on who it considers a friend"
Jus as REBOL does! :-)