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[REBOL] Re: Incomplete Documentation was: [RE: Re: nntp question]

From: geza67:freestart:hu at: 31-Aug-2001 21:07

Hello Maxim,
>sorry for the long post.
Sorry for my long & exhaustive reflection, too :-))
> I am a reboler since version 1.x and I am seriously addicted, there is > no doubt on that.
I wandered through plenty of languages as well, from the programmers' standard C - Pascal, through Forth, VB. Made shorter-longer excursions with Prolog (I still honor the AI paradigm but most of my ideas really don't need it), Haskell, LISP-Scheme. Then came REBOL which is a strange phenomenon being semantically feminine (i.e. highly unpredictable ;-) (at least compared to pure lambda-originated LISP & alikes), iteration-based (I read somewhere that the tail recursion was dropped due to efficiency issues :-(( ) having some functional flares and a unique congruency between data and program code (not a macro-like semi-solution for self-modifying code).
> guides because its clear that currently There are MUCH MORE things under > the hood of rebol than is documented. Not everyone has the time (Yes > its PAINFULLY slow) nor the ability to deciphre code by printing it > out... especially the code from RT which is quite frankly scary > (although enlightning)!
I know it is blasphemy to compare the REBOLution & RT to microsofty ;-) but the issue is quite the same: RT and ms, they both KNOW their intellectual child from toe to scalp and use such "evil" shortcuts that we mere humans (hmmm, mere UNDERINFORMED humans ...) could only dream of.
> /View by itself is PAINFULLY under-documented. It seems that every
Actually I put a similar letter to yours in the circulation some months ago, with the intention of making some waves and a little bit of awareness & beneficial rage that many of REBOLers have PAID for this product AND get really warm and friendly but essentially useless handshakes from RT people instead of a solid documentation covering: - the execution paradigm of REBOL (I think it is a shame, that a non-RT outsider guru, L.Mecir elucidated REBOL word/value bindig pointing out some conceptual errors of the _official_ Core Guide (PDF) (by RT itself ... of course ...) - by now undocumented but being-there (& used-by-RT) functions - View - its underdocumented nature IMHO severely burdens REBOL's widespread use for major projects needing FULL understanding of the underlying GUI paradigm. - low-level internet (TCP/IP) protocol and port programming
> serious question gets answered here on this list, but man... how did all > of you guys (and gals ?) figure out all of this, imagine the time
by: write %system.r mold system ;-)))
> languages... I learned rebol before I knew Python existed... but if I > had known about both at the same time....
Yes, that's the painful experience I lived through, too! The issue between e.g. Python and REBOL is striking: Python is FREE, has lots of modules (When will get REBOL a REAL module/dependecy support - I think, it's a long way ...), possibility of byte-compiling and binary packaging, system-level library (even COM!) and shell access, standard GUI wrapping (Tkinter) just to name a few virtues. Then, you could ask why haven't I converted to Python? Python is very tempting but REBOL is smarter. Although there is a lot in Python at the language-level (on module level - availability of all kinds of pluggable goodies - it beats REBOL in a hiss ;-) ) like REAL object-orientation (not just structure cloning and formal encapsulation which is IMHO a very silly and primitive approach in REBOL; but classes/instances, multiple inheritance as well), rich (but a bit awkward) list comprehension. On the other side, it's file handling is merely conventional, there is no possibility of extending the language with control structures or alikes, no macro support (no possibility of mixing data and code :-((( ), no intuitive _builtin_ data types (like date, url, path REBOL). Although Tk is a bit old-fashioned GUI-delegate, it is solid and deeply documented ...
> But then, Ive been an amigan since 1991 (programmed heavily on it :-) > and I consider Carl A god ;-) ... so It feels like the same than back
I was an AtariSTan thus I don't have this superhuman prejudice :-))) Carl et al are smart at computing but I am still afraid that REBOL will have a similar fate like the rise and fall of Betamax against VHS ;-((( Maybe we should learn some open source language as well to be future-proof ?? ;-)
> This is NOT a flame for RT, its just the expression of the only problem > I face with rebol day in and day out.
> "Contrary to popular belief, Unix IS user-friendly... > its just picky on who it considers a friend"
Jus as REBOL does! :-) -- Best regards, Geza mailto:[geza67--freestart--hu]