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[ALLY] Reference Docs for View

 [1/19] from: rgaither::triad::rr::com at: 8-Jul-2001 16:27


Hi All, Sorry about the double post - I keep forgetting the Ally list is for View related topics. Is it my imagination (or lack of) or are there no View docs for the raw "compositing system" upon which VID is built? I thought I remembered some View only docs from the pre-release times but can't find it now. Is this documented somewhere in more detail than the facet info in the developer's guide? Thanks, Rod. Rod Gaither Oak Ridge, NC - USA [rgaither--triad--rr--com]

 [2/19] from: agem:crosswinds at: 9-Jul-2001 15:59


RE: [REBOL] Re: Reference docs for View [Petr--Krenzelok--trz--cz] wrote:
> > 3. Well, they won't say that, merely _think_ : "What do you expect for > > fifty bucks ... ???" (/View/Pro)
<<quoted lines omitted: 21>>
> about new additions, we would not probably care of /Sound separate component being > of some 500Kb size itself
the problems i see: - you cant disconnect before downloading everything eventually needed and go fishing with laptop. - there is huge overhead in coding if you have check everywhere if feature x is installed. and tell the user thank you for buing this great script blabla for DM15. as i see you need featrues x y z DM 123 to use it . somewhere on list complained he must workaround mising sound..
> As for current state of Sound being awailable only to /Pro payed version - it is > COMPLETLY nonsense, contraproductive, as current sound capabilities are of merely > no value to commercial developers, while making external world laugh at us to pay > for such things as sound capabilities.
its even heavier than that. having this window open, minimized.. with sound is now standard ~everywhere, and showing colleagues this nice new jungle-settings. :) if rebol-scripts would be customized with nice sounds, button "quit" play goodbye-my-friend [..] they would get fine first-look-attention. now for a while no scripts will be aware of that..
>I am not saying it to piss RT here, right?! > I am saying it because that's how things are - ppl having ironic notes to Rebol - > hey, pekr, do you need capability X? Ask Carl, maybe he will produce some
/CapabilityX for you. Ah, of course, prepare to pay for it
> . Very typical notion I > am blind to, ask I know Rebol has great value for me - it just makes our (rebol > promoters) lives more difficult in external (non-rebol) world ... >
they do not use windows?! Present them the Bill.. but then, Bill does not need loyal friends who promote him. using something silent is easier.. maybe RT should look at $large-large-large PR-investions for XP and realize they could have (and need?) similar effects with smaller budge if they feed their grasroots instead stumping them. if HDC can illusion a while "net can only be programmed with clicks", how interested will people look at LDC ? Well, if peoples and mass are their market.
> I am not good at programming, never programmed in C - it's surely my handicap. So > I can just speculate, if we still need some Rebol components architecture, API to
<<quoted lines omitted: 9>>
> Cheers, > -pekr-
-Volker

 [3/19] from: cybarite:sympatico:ca at: 8-Jul-2001 19:51


I once offered to help RT expand on the base of easyvid.r which I think is the best learning tool available for View. What Carl S provided in easyvid.r is a visual way of seeing code source and then clicking to see what it will do. Then those $%#@#! image files from html are not needed. I did send off some update pages for easyvid but I think the RT workload prevented them from being reviewed and posted. Or maybe it was just a bad idea ... sometimes I follow those threads too long ... like back to the spool. If there is interest in re-gathering some updates and posting them, speak up. I think it will cut down on the mailing list items and make it easier to find an example that works. Some of the challenges with easyvid.r that I remember were: a. some of the colors were difficult to read on some of the different screens where I displayed it. Or more precisely some of text did not show up against the dark backgrounds. b. the left side scroll does not move down c. some important items not yet addressed d. examples of data entry were too simple... not like the cross edits and updates needed in a real application e. a base knowledge was assumed. Things that are easy or obvious for RT and the expert levels on the mailing list are not necessarily easy for a JSP programmer (joe six pack). Let me know your thoughts (..... or not) If there are some positive responses, I would send out notes to some of the experts asking them to provide short examples ... like Brett's scrolling text list that I too needed.

 [4/19] from: dwhiting:europa at: 9-Jul-2001 14:38


Hello Mike On 08-Jul-01, Mike Myers wrote:
> If there is interest in re-gathering some updates and posting them, speak > up.
I'd definitely be interested in seeing them. Due to personal problems, I can't be of any help in producing them -- sorry. Dick -- #-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=# *Dick Whiting* <[dwhiting--europa--com]> _http://www.europa.com/~dwhiting/_ /Satyre/ on Undernet #AmigaCafe# #-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=#

 [5/19] from: ingo:2b1 at: 10-Jul-2001 12:09


Hi Mike, I'd be interested, too, can't be of much help though, cos' I'd need it ... kind regards, Ingo Once upon a time Dick Whiting spoketh thus:

 [6/19] from: chris:langreiter at: 10-Jul-2001 13:06


Better /View docs, please! Soon! Imagine all the cool apps __not being written__ because to get started one has to assemble a coherent mental model from about seventy sources - List, old or new docs, old or new samples, often dysfunctional ... It's just an impossible situation. Each time I start to do /View development, I get depressions after about an hour ;-\ What I want is a comprehensive guide to the details - knowing VID is okay, but to really put together compelling apps, there's a lot more to know. Reading the VID source is not an option, thanks, later maybe, but I need a guiding hand first ... Better it's quick and dirty than nothing at all ... -- Chris

 [7/19] from: rgaither:triad:rr at: 10-Jul-2001 8:24


Hi Mike, I also find easyvid to be an excellent tool. More in the tutorial fashion than reference docs but regardless it would be great to help get it to the next level. I'm in that same camp though of needing it, not really being able to help much in improving it or adding new content. Thanks, Rod.
>I once offered to help RT expand on the base of easyvid.r which I think is >the best learning tool
<<quoted lines omitted: 29>>
>[rebol-request--rebol--com] with "unsubscribe" in the >subject, without the quotes.
Rod Gaither Oak Ridge, NC - USA [rgaither--triad--rr--com]

 [8/19] from: cybarite:sympatico:ca at: 10-Jul-2001 11:42


This is my work on this so far do http://www.cybarite.com/public/vid-usage.r Read the caveats on page 1 about work-in-progress......

 [9/19] from: geza67:freestart:hu at: 10-Jul-2001 20:37


Hello Christian,
> Better /View docs, please! Soon!
I think we are making waves now :-)) (See my earlier quite furious post) Being a closed (proprietary environment)
> has to assemble a coherent mental model from about seventy sources - List,
That's the main point. You see a little bit of trick here, a nice hack there but no-one explains in full depth e.g. REBOL's main execution model (well, how about the purity and simplicity of the top level LISP loop, taught at respected programming courses as a model!). Why has droppped Carl the earlier stack model (borrowed from Scheme) and what are the insigths of this new one?
> old or new docs, old or new samples, often dysfunctional ... It's just an
On samples: there are so many active participants here, why not to start a CRAN (Comprehensive REBOL Archive Network) in the taste of CPAN (Perl , grrrrrr!) ?
> impossible situation. Each time I start to do /View development, I get > depressions after about an hour ;-\
But what a level of anticipation comes shining on you when after thousands of trial-and-error code modifications (tiny things DO matter a lot in REBOL being such a compact language) you get your layout running! :-)
> Better it's quick and dirty than nothing at all ...
Is "write %system.dis mold system" not dirty enough ? ;-) -- Best regards, Geza mailto:[geza67--freestart--hu]

 [10/19] from: rgaither:triad:rr at: 8-Jul-2001 14:27


Hi All, Is it my imagination (or lack of) or are there no View docs for the raw "compositing system" upon which VID is built? I thought I remembered some View only docs from the pre-release times but can't find it now. Is this documented somewhere in more detail that the facet info in the developer's guide? Thanks, Rod. Rod Gaither Oak Ridge, NC - USA [rgaither--triad--rr--com]

 [11/19] from: geza67:freestart:hu at: 8-Jul-2001 22:31


Hello Rod,
> Is it my imagination (or lack of) or are there no > View docs for > the raw "compositing system" > upon which VID is built?
It is a great problem for me, too. I am just wondering that none of the active List Participants (some of them are PURCHASERS of the Product, so they literally PAID for it and use it professionally thus they MAY (?!) wish a professional API documentation for their money, as well! ) has raised his voice that RT releases a wonderful new programming "Thing" and the first _official_ /View, rudimentary (still explaining on really hot topics: just wait, more to come ... ;-) But WHEN ??? ) Howtos appear roughly after 1 YEAR (counting from the beta release) on the RT home site. Nevertheless, the usable (and very correct and comprehensive) CORE.PDF appeared roughly 1.5-2 years later than the significant Core 2.x releases came ... Till that time the rebolian/rebolish "voodoo" has benn spread only mouth by mouth from the great guys of this list. Now /View has it's similar no-reference-level documentation orphanage. I know that coding is much more fun than documenting, but look at Lin*x or look at Micros*ft/S*n/B*rland/L*tus etc. etc., just to mention two arbitrarily different developmental approaches - they all know that there ARE customers who don't have the spare time to delve into the /SYSTEM object full source listings to get things done. Well, some of their API documentations (counting some hundreds of pages ...) were out WAY earlier than the real product. I am not a professional programmer (I am just an M.D., interested in such technical things), searching for MY Holy Grail of programming languages. I suppose, I found it in REBOL but it is really annoying that I should ask several shameless questions via this List which would have been answered by a proper View Programming Guide. Some tips and short topics can be covered in a mail list, but View design philosophy, answering not only the HOWs but the WHYs are ment to be in reference materials, I guess. -- Best regards, Geza mailto:[geza67--freestart--hu]

 [12/19] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 8-Jul-2001 23:01


At the times of Beta 1 View release, there was some View guiede, very nice one. I really too don't understand RT, why do they almost limit View to VID things (well, except maybe docs describing event handling). I also miss introductory docs to Rebol itselv, which were removed from the website. Noone from RT replied to such request. Maybe my email was missed, so I will try to bcc to Carl. Few ppl asked me at RIM already, what is the basic point behind Rebol. They surely miss Rebol in a nutshell and Rebol in ten steps on RT's website. I miss them too ;-) I was imo good introductory reference ... Cheers, -pekr-

 [13/19] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 8-Jul-2001 23:39


Hmm, quick look on google suggests docs are still there? I can't find link to them from main website though ... http://www.rebol.com/nutshell.html http://www.rebol.com/rebolsteps.html http://www.rebol.com/rebolcause.html http://www.rebol.com/features.html -pekr-

 [14/19] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 8-Jul-2001 23:49


Even some more .... http://www.codeconscious.com/rebol/tips-and-techniques.html I also find old View beta users guide. I miss images though ... http://www.rebol.cz/~can/rebol-view/view-users.html IIRC, Allen put some older docs on his http://www.rebolforces.com website, but I can be wrong ... -pekr-

 [15/19] from: allenk:powerup:au at: 9-Jul-2001 7:29


REBOL/View documentation. There are probably a few thing missing from the current set of docs, but the current set has documented areas not documented before. I haven't read the current set so I can't comment on their content. Many users who need the lower level stuff make use REBOLs self documenting and also every script is an example document for REBOL and Source is your best friend. And if you prefer the old docs, you can read them at the rf archive. A few View Docs & resources. View-guide: available on desktop/docs or from the site Vew-faq: http://www.rebolforces.com/view-faq.html View how-tos http://www.rebol.com/how-to.html View Beginners guide: http://www.rebol.com/docs/easy-vid.html View Desktop: http://www.rebol.com/docs/desktop.html Internal: ;-) save %view.txt system/view old-docs (includes face and events): http://www.rebolforces.com/archive/index.html , http://www.rebolforces.com/archive/view08doc.html Vid: desktop/docs/easy-vid Draw: desktop/docs/easy-draw Cheers, Allen K

 [16/19] from: rgaither:triad:rr at: 8-Jul-2001 17:49


Hi Geza, I'm glad I'm not alone in finding this issue a problem.
>> Is it my imagination (or lack of) or are there no > View docs for >> the raw "compositing system" > upon which VID is built? > >It is a great problem for me, too. I am just wondering that none of >the active List Participants (some of them are PURCHASERS of the >Product, so they literally PAID for it and use it professionally thus
As a paying owner of View/Pro I will make an official request to RT for proper docs on View and let the list know the response. Thanks, Rod. Rod Gaither Oak Ridge, NC - USA [rgaither--triad--rr--com]

 [17/19] from: rgaither:triad:rr at: 8-Jul-2001 17:56


Hi Allen, Thanks for the links - one of the older view guides had the faces example I was remembering.
>current set so I can't comment on their content. Many users who need the >lower level stuff make use REBOLs self documenting and also every script is >an example document for REBOL and Source is your best friend. And if you
I know the source is invaluable but it does lack the both the Why and the "Definition" of things as well as being hard for non experts to navigate through. Rod. Rod Gaither Oak Ridge, NC - USA [rgaither--triad--rr--com]

 [18/19] from: geza67:freestart:hu at: 9-Jul-2001 6:52


Hello Rod,
> As a paying owner of View/Pro I will make an official request > to RT for proper docs on View and let the list know the response.
Maybe I am too pessimistic about the business world (hey, I am living in an ex-communist country ;-))) ), but I imagine three alternatives upon your official request to RT: 1. A list of on-line resources which have been put together _mostly_ by REBOL activists (e.g. paying _consumers_ of REBOL) not the company itself. (Well, the company's HOWTO topic collection is growing but is sufficient for a showup only, not for as real, solid reference materials.) 2. A nice "cool-down" message: "We are working on it 0-24h !!!" ;-))) 3. Well, they won't say that, merely _think_ : "What do you expect for fifty bucks ... ???" (/View/Pro) /Command being also cheap for a professional tool. Nevertheless, external library support is included in ALL of the free, open source scripting languages (well, WHY hasn't the growing ambitious REBOL community including me opt for Perl or Python --- it is another story, though... :-)) ) and it is a sneaky marketing politics, making the self-containing "hermetic" version of REBOL free and the system-connectable one THE product. It would have been more fair that they include shell access in the public version and release the industry-strength ODBC interface in the commercial version. It is wise that encryption is included not in the free but in the payware /Pro versions, but the toy-level sound support as a companion ... ;-)) I am very cautious about REBOL's future. Carl et al are wonderful people, opened a whole new dimension of programming, turning atavistic paradigms 180 o , but their marketing strategy and efforts to "spread the Word" is ultimately questionable. The world's programming society is moving from proprietary toward open source, relentlessly seeking independence from commercial suppliers. I am really expecting that some day an open source REBOL project (hey, what is with OSCAR ???) will _compete_ with (but not _strand_ !) RT's implementation. With this kind of attitude of RT REBOL will never boom as some worthless hypes (like J*va) succeeded both in profit and intellectual terms. Sorry for my spicy tongue ;-) but I WANNA use REBOL and WOULD pay for a complete implementation, i.e. program + full comprehensive (electronic) _DOCS_ ! -- Best regards, Geza mailto:[geza67--freestart--hu]

 [19/19] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 9-Jul-2001 7:44


> 3. Well, they won't say that, merely _think_ : "What do you expect for > fifty bucks ... ???" (/View/Pro)
<<quoted lines omitted: 9>>
> It is wise that encryption is included not in the free but in the > payware /Pro versions, but the toy-level sound support as a companion ... ;-))
We (especially me, I am famous because of that ;-) screamed loudly some year or more ago that to boost rebol usage we need: - library and (or at least) shell to become part of /Core = free - we need dynamic loadable components (or at least some kind of key unlocking paid components), to allow: a) per component pricing - e.g. you have bought ODBC, but would like to buy native mySQL support b) while we take care of size of Rebol executable and RT seems to be carefull about new additions, we would not probably care of /Sound separate component being of some 500Kb size itself As for current state of Sound being awailable only to /Pro payed version - it is COMPLETLY nonsense, contraproductive, as current sound capabilities are of merely no value to commercial developers, while making external world laugh at us to pay for such things as sound capabilities. I am not saying it to piss RT here, right?! I am saying it because that's how things are - ppl having ironic notes to Rebol - hey, pekr, do you need capability X? Ask Carl, maybe he will produce some /CapabilityX for you. Ah, of course, prepare to pay for it . Very typical notion I am blind to, ask I know Rebol has great value for me - it just makes our (rebol promoters) lives more difficult in external (non-rebol) world ... I am not good at programming, never programmed in C - it's surely my handicap. So I can just speculate, if we still need some Rebol components architecture, API to Rebol kernel, to hook our own components in. We currently have libraries and we could do much with it, I just don't know if without proper knowledge of Rebol internals even thouse skilled enough could bring some usefull components to us.... but of course, I can imagine some kind of API exposed to external component developers, to hook in more closely into Rebol kernel architecture ... One Czech company - Humusoft, became official developer of Matlab components for Mathsoft, maybe Cyphre Ltd. could by future Rebol component developer for Rebol Technologies :-) So, enough :-) Cheers, -pekr-

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