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[ALLY] List Processing Changes

 [1/12] from: scott:rebol at: 19-Oct-2000 2:01


To All List Members, After many discussions about how best to manage the growing number of lists and the equally large number of requested features for those lists, we have determined that the best course of action for the moment is to migrate the current mailing lists to Listar, an open source software package. This software offers many of the features, which have been requested on the list, such as digest mode. This move will allow us to offer extended features immediately, while giving us the appropriate time necessary to enhance the current SELMA script with all of the requested features. SELMA will still be operational for the [notice--rebol--com] list, and for short term lists that may be necessary for individual projects. When the enhancements to SELMA have been completed, we will notify the lists, and convert the lists from Listar back to SELMA. But, that change should be seemless to all list members. However, the current change from SELMA to Listar will not be totally seemless. Instead of a single email address for both postings and commands, now there will be separate address as follows: Previous Address New Posting Address New Command Address ___________________________________________________________________________ [ally--rebol--com] [ally-list--rebol--com] [ally-request--rebol--com] [list--rebol--com] [rebol-list--rebol--com] [rebol-request--rebol--com] [command--rebol--com] [command-list--rebol--com] [command-request--rebol--com] [rebol-org--rebol--com] [rebol-org-list--rebol--com] [rebol-org-request--rebol--com] [rebol-apache--rebol--com] [apache-list--rebol--com] [apache-request--rebol--com] ___________________________________________________________________________ You will not need to subscribe to any list that you were previously a member of, that has all been migrated to the new system. You will, however, need to edit any email aliases in your mailer to the new posting address for each mailing list of which you are a member. We hope that this change is a pleasant one, and we encourage you to send any comments about this to [feedback--rebol--com--These] lists are dedicated to the discussion of issues related to REBOL Products and their components. These lists are here to provide a medium for users to discuss REBOL and to aid others in their understanding of our products. Please keep your discussions on topic and avoid lengthy off-topic threads that may distract others. These lists are for the enjoyment of everyone. For a list of commands, which can be used within our list services, please send an email to [lists--rebol--com] with a subject of "Help", without the quotes. NOTE: This is an unmoderated list. Please do not assume that posting an email to this list ensures that REBOL Technologies is aware of an issue or request. If you have an issue or request that you feel warrants our attention, including improper use of these lists, please send an email to [feedback--rebol--com]. Thanks for continuing to join in the discussion, The REBOL Team

 [2/12] from: holger:rebol at: 19-Oct-2000 22:47


On Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 06:41:41AM +0200, Petr Krenzelok wrote:
> > Carl Sassenrath wrote: > > > Great! Good work Scott and Holger. I look forward to the new features, benefits, and timesavings this list will bring us. > > While great on one side, it shows something on other side - it's like MS would install Linux instead of their WindowsNT server.
But they do, on occasion -- they just don't tell everyone :)
> Company claiming they have great product for whatever-internet-related, not using their own solutions. Is the move really > because of lack of SELMA's features or because of lack of SELMA's (REBOL's) performance?
Performance did not factor into the decision at all. SELMA has always performed very well, from our experience. The main advantages of Listar over SELMA in its current form, and the reasons why we are switching, are several user-specific options in Listar, in particular digest mode, something that has been requested by many users recently, with the higher traffic on the lists, and, for our sysadmin, the convenience of automatic bounce handling in Listar. We see Listar only has a short-term solution, until we have some time to add those features to SELMA and properly test them (or have someone else add them -- any volunteers ?). Then we intend to switch back. SELMA has quite a few advantages over Listar that we hate to lose, e.g. higher-level scripting (obviously :-)), nicer configuration and better extensibility. Just adding text/x-rebol support to Listar today meant I had to recompile the C sources. With REBOL that would have been a trivial change... Also, SELMA and its configuration integrate better with other parts of our environment (bug database etc.), which are all REBOL-based as well. Yes, we DO use our own products in-house -- very extensively actually, and with great results. Makes a lot of things so much easier... :) -- Holger Kruse [holger--rebol--com]

 [3/12] from: carl:pacific at: 19-Oct-2000 10:23


Great! Good work Scott and Holger. I look forward to the new features, benefits, and timesavings this list will bring us. -Carl At 10/19/00 02:01 AM -0700, you wrote:

 [4/12] from: carl:pacific at: 20-Oct-2000 9:36


When I wrote SELMA, it was with the full intention that it would be open source and that a community of interested people would pick it up and expand on it. It was an just example script. SELMA is not a product of REBOL Tech, it is a short script that served its job for more than two years. It has processed more than 500'000 incoming email messages and 500'000'000 outgoing messages. It's message base is over a gigabyte of files. We ran five SELMA lists in parallel over a 128KB ISDN (at old building). Not bad for a few lines of REBOL code and a few hours of programming. SELMA needs to be adopted by a group of folks who will give it the attention and features it needs. It is yours make great. I have suggested this before. RT does not have time to work on it. We've got Core, Command, View, Link, Serve, Apache, and far too much other stuff to do. Larry Wall didn't write all the Perl applications of the world. So, tell me Petr: when was your last script contribution to the REBOL community? Maybe SELMA should be your new project. Get busy. -Carl At 10/20/00 06:41 AM +0200, you wrote:

 [5/12] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 20-Oct-2000 6:41


Carl Sassenrath wrote:
> Great! Good work Scott and Holger. I look forward to the new features, benefits, and timesavings this list will bring us.
While great on one side, it shows something on other side - it's like MS would install Linux instead of their WindowsNT server. Company claiming they have great product for whatever-internet-related, not using their own solutions. Is the move really because of lack of SELMA's features or because of lack of SELMA's (REBOL's) performance? -pekr-

 [6/12] from: brett:codeconscious at: 20-Oct-2000 17:13


> Also, SELMA and its configuration integrate better with other parts > of our environment (bug database etc.), which are all REBOL-based as well.
Yes, we DO use our own
> products in-house -- very extensively actually, and with great results.
Makes a lot of things
> so much easier... :) > > -- > Holger Kruse > [holger--rebol--com] >
Holger, If you have a minute could you list RT's in-house uses of Rebol, and possibly make a comment on how they were good solutions? Thanks, Brett.

 [7/12] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 20-Oct-2000 19:34


----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Sassenrath <[carl--pacific--net]> To: <[ally-list--rebol--com]> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 6:36 PM Subject: [ALLY] Re: List Processing Changes
> When I wrote SELMA, it was with the full intention that it would be open
source and that a community of interested people would pick it up and expand on it. It was an just example script.
> SELMA is not a product of REBOL Tech, it is a short script that served its
job for more than two years. It has processed more than 500'000 incoming email messages and 500'000'000 outgoing messages. It's message base is over a gigabyte of files. We ran five SELMA lists in parallel over a 128KB ISDN (at old building).
> Not bad for a few lines of REBOL code and a few hours of programming.
Why don't you use above for a little advert info then? Maybe small mention in some interview could attract few people looking at REBOL ...
> SELMA needs to be adopted by a group of folks who will give it the
attention and features it needs. It is yours make great. I have suggested this before. RT does not have time to work on it. We've got Core, Command, View, Link, Serve, Apache, and far too much other stuff to do.
> Larry Wall didn't write all the Perl applications of the world.
Well, something's wrong here. You sound so disappointed by my message, while it was not meant and it was not a complaint. I just asked the question, as if you would scan historically thru rebol mls, you would find out I was always interested in some kind of benchmarking, e.g. rebol (with tasking capabilities) as apache replacement, but don't know how to do tests myself ...
> So, tell me Petr: when was your last script contribution to the REBOL
community? Maybe SELMA should be your new project. Get busy. OK, as it sounds a little bit I am doing nothing more than just complaining, a little explanation here: First I could return you the question asking: "So, Carl, tell me, what was actually the last script contribution to the REBOL community by the community itself?" REBOL community hasn't proved itself yet. Look at rebol.org, look at rebmail. A typical example of "failure"? I don't actually know of any other running community projects ... Now to myself. - I have problems of writing the code at all ;-) It's just two days I stopped and asked my brother - "hey - what am I good for? I just visit some meetings, organise ppl, analyse stuff, visit even more meetings ;-)" Sometimes I have really bad feelings I am useless at various places. But someone has to do the kind of work I am doing. So I have planned some meetings for the next week too. One of them, being e-commerce one. I prepared some very short material for my boss to be presented to management. Maybe I will lead e-commerce initiative in our company, maybe I will not, but hey, I am trying ... And if I will - there's also the chance for commercial usage of REBOL ... maybe .... I also plan to use REBOL for another (private) commercial initiative and you surely heard about it from your marketing people .... Should I mention I am preparing for the article? What about looking at feedback logs? There is not version of REBOL I wouldn't report bugs or comment in general. I also pay for the rebol.cz domain for the third year now, but it seems to me there's just 5 or so REBOL users in our country. BUT! - the situation can change. There's a lot of potential in REBOL. It's just not used in a right way. We are not attracting ppl from other camps, partly because we have little to offer them and they have to balance various factors (e.g. lotsa stuff written in other environments). However - after my last discussions with Dan, I am satisfied .... If you will go for dynamic components and per component pricing so we will be able to buy e.g. /library and /shell for for e.g. apache /core, it's great. It will even bring you some money, as you can charge much more for separate /Oracle than if /Oracle would be just hardwired inside of /Command together with other components. ... There is no single day (maybe except vacation) for me without learning rebol, testing rebol, programming rebol, teaching rebol ..... PS: my last two short scripts sent to the list yesterday and today show various progress bar styles as well as primitive gifanim utilisation ... Well, just teach your new SELMA replacement (don't remember the name) to accept attachements :-) -pekr-

 [8/12] from: ingo:2b1 at: 20-Oct-2000 20:50


Hi Carl, tell me, are you ready to accept contribution from the community? In the days of /core 2.2 you sent a message to the list along the lines of: Yes, 'send needs a bit work, I'd like it to be able to be able to handle blocks like this: send [ Ingo Hohmann" [ingo--2b1--de] "Carl Sassenrath" [carl--rebol--com] ] {Hi!} someone from this list could do this." My patches to the send system doing exactly that, and adding some other clean-up have been sent to you no more than a month later. I sent another patch to feedback, adding the ability to use 'help on objects. Neither of these has been included into rebol so far. So, _are_ you ready to take contributions from your community? best regards, Ingo Once upon a time Carl Sassenrath spoketh thus:

 [9/12] from: al::bri::xtra::co::nz at: 21-Oct-2000 9:15


Ingo wrote:
> So, _are_ you ready to take contributions from your community?
I wrote some stuff and suggestions for SELMA as well, but these seemed to be ignored. :-\ Take for example, my %R2HTML.r, which can correctly HTML-ize itself, while Rebol's version can't. I'm still working to do improvements to Rebol and SELMA, check out: http://members.nbci.com/AndrewMartin/Rebol/Patches/ for the stuff I've improved in Rebol so far. Watch out for the %Round.r in my ../Enhancements directory. Geo let me know that it doesn't work correctly for negative numbers. Andrew Martin ICQ: 26227169 http://members.nbci.com/AndrewMartin/

 [10/12] from: ingo:2b1 at: 23-Oct-2000 23:08


Hi Carl, as your great in not answering a certain kind of email ... what do you want? a "community of rebol users", or a rebol user community ? The first you'll get for free, but there will not be much support, to get the second, you have to invest a little work and time, but I think it will pay. Of course nearly everyone on the lists _knows_ how much you are doing for Rebol, and I think the top ten persent posters even _realize_ how much you are doing, but if you want to have a community, well, you have to show an interest, there, too. Not everything done in the community is instantly seen, just like much you do cannot be instantly seen in the community. Those who complain the most are your true friends, because _they_ want Rebol to become the best possible, and they want for Rebol, and you, to have success. The day there are no more complaints, the rebol community will be dead. So far there are enough people who don't want this to happen, but don't play too high. yours sincerely, Ingo Once upon a time Carl Sassenrath spoketh thus:

 [11/12] from: dan:rebol at: 25-Oct-2000 10:47


Ingo, Of course you're right about complaints, criticisms, etc. We do appreciate them greatly. And as for contributions, we're working on providing a policy for adding community contributions to the REBOL language...should see something real soon. Thanks, Dan At 11:08 PM 10/23/00 +0200, you wrote:

 [12/12] from: al:bri:xtra at: 19-Oct-2000 22:40


To reduce fragmentation of the Rebol Community, I've deleted the eGroups lists: [Rebol-List--egroups--com] [Rebol-Core--egroups--com] [Rebol-View--egroups--com] [Rebol-Command--egroups--com] Thank you for joining these lists. Note that you don't have to unsubscribe. Please note that these other lists: [Rebol-Defects--egroups--com] - Discussing Rebol Defects list. [Web_Dialect--egroups--com] - Discussing Web Dialects in Rebol are still in existence. Thank you. Andrew Martin ICQ: 26227169 http://members.nbci.com/AndrewMartin/