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Rugby RIP

 [1/27] from: m::koopmans2::chello::nl at: 17-Jan-2002 18:44


All, Rugby is officially dead, the web sites have been removed. You may use it (including republishing) as the BSD license indicates if you stil have it. With IOS coming Rebol will have a built-in distributed system. If IOS fails there is no case for such thing anyway. I feel it is in Rebols best interest if there 'is only one'. Thank you all for using it and making it a fun. Goodbye, Maarten

 [2/27] from: jason:cunliffe:verizon at: 17-Jan-2002 14:29


> Rugby is officially dead, the web sites have been removed. You may use it > (including republishing) as the BSD license indicates if you still have
it. Maarten, Thank you ... but Yeow! Does this mean you are asking us not to post a copy of it on a web site ? If not then why take it down? Why not just append/include a message saying: <quote> The Rugby experiment is officially dead. [17Jan2002] You may use this archive (including republishing) as the BSD license indicates. Rebol/IOS now has a built-in distributed system. See http://www.rebol.com/products.html for more detail </quote> Even as learning code, for experiments like GORIM etc, or for people who can't wait weeks for answers from RT about IOS
> With IOS coming Rebol will have a built-in distributed system. If IOS
fails
> there is no case for such thing anyway. I feel it is in Rebols best
interest
> if there 'is only one'.
Is there going to be a free or very cheap IOS ? Anyone know what the price structure is/will be for IOS [..Yes I emailed Cindy] Does this mean IOS is going to become/replace the default REBOL/Core ? Hard to see how there is going to be "only one", when currently RT have a suite of annouced versions without very clear product relationships, contents, pricing or licensing structure. hmm.. I know RT need to make some money. Absolutely no argument there.. If IOS fails there is no case for such thing anyway. I don't get that statement at all. IOS could fail for a zillion reasons, including poor email response, miscalculated applications, marketing strategy, lack of clear web presentation regarding pricing, licensing etc, MS .NET media behemoth, bad luck, recession... The opposite could also all be true [hope so]. imo, The only way Rubgy would be a competitor or comfusing is if people make an awesome platfrom with apps around it, which are better cheaper faster than IOS and give it away or sell it for much less. Hard to see. Will IOS foster developemtn and esperimentation. I sure hope so. At the moment it very much gives me the impression it is aimed at being a quasishrink wrapped suite for commercial business.
> Thank you all for using it and making it a fun.
Thanks again Maarten. My comments above are really not aimed at you.. I am just putting these concerns into the REBOL air in the hope I have misunderstood and will be proven wrong... ./Jason

 [3/27] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 17-Jan-2002 20:40


Maarten Koopmans wrote:
>All, >Rugby is officially dead, the web sites have been removed. You may use it
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>
>Goodbye, >Maarten
Maarten, excuse me, but that is the worst scenario you choosed to support! I really can't understand it. What do you know of IOS that you are sure it provides the same functionality? ;-/ I am not sure we are not doomed. Nenad stopped free fast-cgi protocol implementation, simply to don't compete with RT, and you announce just similar strategy for Rugby. Such kind of scenario ("there is only one way", "mother company centric") can work against us and rebol itself in the long run .... Anyway, thanks for the rugby - best piece of Rebol code and proof of easily done distributed computing so far .... -pekr-

 [4/27] from: larry:ecotope at: 17-Jan-2002 12:05


Hi Maarten, I am very sorry to hear this news. I think there is a current and on-going need for scripts such as Rugby. There are many REBOL users who will not be going the full IOS/Express route due to cost and other factors. I see no harm to RT, and much benefit to the rest of us, from the continued availability of wonderful scripts such as Rugby. I do not agree with the argument that if RT decides to include some feature in its commercial product line (IOS/Express), we should not develop Core or View based apps which share those features. Would you argue, that because some of the IOS Reblets have simple business graphics capabilities, none of us should develop or distribute graphics scripts? I hope that you will reconsider this decision. -Larry

 [5/27] from: slok00::yahoo at: 18-Jan-2002 4:02


At 02:29 PM 1/17/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Does this mean IOS is going to become/replace the default REBOL/Core ?
Following is a brief take from an email I got from Scot in RT. === Thought you'd want to know, that our IOS Express real-time environment is actually built upon /Core, /Command, and /View technology. They act as components of the overall system. So when you connect to our server you will be experiencing the integration and interaction of the entire IOS Technology platform. Programs written under IOS can take advantage of any or all of these components. Best regards, Scot M. Sutherland Director of Market Development REBOL Technologies, Inc. ==== Hope this helps. YekSoon aka slok

 [6/27] from: carl:cybercraft at: 18-Jan-2002 9:30


On 18-Jan-02, Petr Krenzelok wrote:
> Maarten Koopmans wrote: >> All,
<<quoted lines omitted: 10>>
> support! I really can't understand it. What do you know of IOS that > you are sure it provides the same functionality? ;-/
It has certainly generated more discussion here than IOS. (:
> I am not sure we are not doomed. Nenad stopped free fast-cgi > protocol implementation, simply to don't compete with RT, and you > announce just similar strategy for Rugby. Such kind of scenario > ("there is only one way", "mother company centric") can work against > us and rebol itself in the long run ....
I had a vague feeling I'd seen Rugby mentioned on the REBOL site, but I can't find the reference there any more. I did notice that Core, Command and View are now refered to as "REBOL Messaging Language Products". How long has that been the case?
> Anyway, thanks for the rugby - best piece of Rebol code and proof of > easily done distributed computing so far .... > -pekr-
-- Carl Read

 [7/27] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 17-Jan-2002 22:11


Carl Read wrote:
>I had a vague feeling I'd seen Rugby mentioned on the REBOL site, but >I can't find the reference there any more. I did notice that Core, >Command and View are now refered to as "REBOL Messaging Language >Products". How long has that been the case? >
Or just look at RT website referred OSNews interview. Does RT thinks the same way as Maarten does? It is strange then and means they are still polishing their strategy then, as Carl mentions Rugby as fine request broker in the above mentioned interview ..... -pekr-

 [8/27] from: louisaturk:eudoramail at: 17-Jan-2002 15:21


Maarten, I agree with Petr and Larry. This is a really bad decision that will hurt rebol much more than it will help it. This is the most disappointing news I have heard regarding rebol since I have been on this list. I would certainly hope that these kind of decisions do not continue---that every time someone comes up with a really great script, something happens behind the scenes to kill it and remove it from circulation. We need these great scripts to help us learn to program in rebol. We need rugby to help us better understand rebol. I just can't see the existence of rugby hurting rebol. However, I can see the death of rugby hurting rebol a lot. This decision, I believe, is a big mistake. I sure hope you will reconsider. Louis At 12:05 PM 1/17/2002 -0800, you wrote:

 [9/27] from: carl:cybercraft at: 18-Jan-2002 10:26


On 18-Jan-02, Petr Krenzelok wrote:
> Carl Read wrote: >> I had a vague feeling I'd seen Rugby mentioned on the REBOL site,
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>
> still polishing their strategy then, as Carl mentions Rugby as fine > request broker in the above mentioned interview .....
Hmmm, perhaps that was the reference I was thinking of. My instincts say to me that Maarten and RT have come to this decision together, but that's just a gut feeling and could be wrong. -- Carl Read

 [10/27] from: nitsch-lists:netcologne at: 17-Jan-2002 22:32


RE: [REBOL] Re: Rugby RIP [carl--cybercraft--co--nz] wrote:
> On 18-Jan-02, Petr Krenzelok wrote: > > Maarten Koopmans wrote:
<<quoted lines omitted: 12>>
> Command and View are now refered to as "REBOL Messaging Language > Products". How long has that been the case?
was mentioned by Carl Sassenrath in the os-news interview? http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=199 :: In REBOL, applications are agile. You don't need SOAP, WSDL, SCL, NASSL, UDDI, UML, MSXML, XSLT, RMI, IIOP, DCOM, DNA, or anything else. You write it, and it works - just about everywhere. If you need object brokering such as Corba, you can use a broker such as Rugby. Rugby is advanced, robust, fast, and it is written in only 1500 lines of REBOL. ;;; Maarten, what happend?

 [11/27] from: brett:codeconscious at: 18-Jan-2002 8:52


Maarten, Sounds very sudden. I hope you reconsider. People want to do things now. IOS has been coming for a very long time. Trying to evaluate it is isn't easy either. Rugby makes a distributed program in minutes - it is too useful to ignore. It is fine that you believe that there "is only one". But really, if IOS can't prove itself to be as accessible, easy to deploy and as functional; then Rugby has it's niche. Don't be afraid to step on IOS's toes. IOS has to prove itself like Rugby has. Rugby is not a threat to IOS. Rugby can help IOS by teaching concepts. As Gregg pointed out on another thread earlier, Rugby helped him prototype a system. I suspect that Rugby based prototype helped him to decide to prototype in IOS. If IOS proves itself then Rugby will silently slip of the radar because IOS will have the weight of corporate/official support. There is no need to terminate Rugby prematurely. If you want to point people to IOS do so on your website and explain that Rugby is unsupported, but don't take down such a significant achievement. Brett.

 [12/27] from: jason:cunliffe:verizon at: 17-Jan-2002 17:09


> what happend?
*22-Oct-2001* Interview: Carl Sassenrath on REBOL. OSNews.com ..If you need object brokering such as Corba, you can use a broker such as Rugby. Rugby is advanced, robust, fast, and it is written in only 1500 lines of REBOL. *31-Oct-2001 Press Release: REBOL and Morpheus join forces to create the largest programmable content network. StreamCast, makers of Morpheus and next generation peer-to-peer content distribution networks, will base Morpheus 2.0 on REBOL's X Internet operating system (IOS) technology to provide interactive programmable content to more than 30 million users by the end of the year .... Tiny applications, called "reblets", are only about the size of a single web page. They can be quickly created and run across dozens of operating systems. For security, IOS is one of the first systems to offer the new Advanced Encryption Standard (AES). .... We're going to see a whole new world of network applications, says Darrell Smith, StreamCast CTO. "Applications will be morphing - expanding and improving - in real time over the network. You will be able to locate and use a variety of innovative applications and services for business, home, education, and entertainment. The agility of this system will enable it to quickly outrun .Net." *17-Jan-2002 NY Times article: TECHNOLOGY Black Hawk Download: Pirated Videos Thrive Online http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/17/technology/circuits/17VIDE.html *17-Jan-2002 To: <[rebol-list--rebol--com]> Subject: [REBOL] Rugby RIP Rugby is officially dead, the web sites have been removed. You may use it (including republishing) as the BSD license indicates if you stil have it...

 [13/27] from: chris:langreiter at: 17-Jan-2002 23:43


> Rugby is officially dead [...]
Maarten, PLEASE NOT! I guess the "distributed system" in IOS (whatever you're referring to exactly) won't support XML-RPC, and I had a (maybe ;-) pretty cool application planned with RugbyXR, so please please repost it. Best regards, -- Chris

 [14/27] from: carl:cybercraft at: 18-Jan-2002 12:24


Just assumptions? Or do you know for sure that train of events are the reasons? I can't see IOS being threatened by Rugby, but it's possible IOS does Rugby better than Rugby. (Plus lots of other stuff of course.) And anyway, with regards to Rugby, "You may use it (including republishing) as the BSD license indicates if you stil have it." We've just lost its original developer here - not Rugby itself. On 18-Jan-02, Jason Cunliffe wrote:
>> what happend? > *22-Oct-2001*
<<quoted lines omitted: 30>>
> use it (including republishing) as the BSD license indicates if you > stil have it...
-- Carl Read

 [15/27] from: brett:codeconscious at: 18-Jan-2002 10:37


> We've just lost its original developer here - not Rugby itself.
True. But Maarten will be missed if he has decided to pull out of Rebol all together. Don't do it Maarten! :) Brett.

 [16/27] from: sunandadh:aol at: 17-Jan-2002 18:42


Hi Maartin,
> Rugby is officially dead, the web sites have been removed. You may use it > (including republishing) as the BSD license indicates if you stil have it.
I'm sorry to hear you've concluded Rugby. And that was just as I was about to start giving it a serious look.
> Goodbye,
Goodbye!? You've proved yourself as a serious middleware developer and a Rebol guru. I hope that's not "goodbye to the list and to Rebol". If it is, we're all the poorer for it. If it is (and i hope it isn't), let me wish you the best in all your future projects, Sunanda.

 [17/27] from: holger:rebol at: 17-Jan-2002 17:21


On Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 10:26:07AM +1200, Carl Read wrote:
> Hmmm, perhaps that was the reference I was thinking of. My instincts > say to me that Maarten and RT have come to this decision together, > but that's just a gut feeling and could be wrong.
It is wrong. We at RT are as surprised about this as everyone else. At the technical level IOS does have some overlap in functionality with Rugby, but it is targetted towards different markets and applications than Rugby. I do not see any kind of threat for one of those products by the other and, from that perspective, see no reason to discontinue work on Rugby. Maarten may have had other reasons though. Also, keep in mind that Maarten released Rugby under the BSD license, which basically means that anyone can use the sources for any purpose, create derivative products (even commercial ones), include it in other products etc., all without having to pay royalties, as long as certain basic conditions are fulfilled (liability disclaimer, copyright notice etc.). For a developer the BSD license is one of the "nicest" licenses to work with, much better and less restrictive than, e.g., GPL. So there is really nothing preventing anyone else from picking up Rugby and continuing development on it. -- Holger Kruse [holger--rebol--com]

 [18/27] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 17-Jan-2002 18:56


<< As Gregg pointed out on another thread earlier, Rugby helped him prototype a system. I suspect that Rugby based prototype helped him to decide to prototype in IOS. >> The Rugby component is *still* a critical part of the system! We recently licensed IOS but I don't know yet how, or if I can, replace the functionality that Rugby currently provides. That said, Maarten's message certainly leaves a lot of room for assumption. We don't know what the circumstances are surrounding his decision, but I think the outpouring of sentiment shows how important his contributions to the REBOL community have been. Whether it's a personal decision, a directive, or a negotiated agreement of some kind, we don't know, but I'm sure we would all like to say "THANK YOU!" to Maarten and let him know how much we appreciate his efforts and camaraderie. --Gregg

 [19/27] from: chalz:earthlink at: 18-Jan-2002 0:05


From: "Larry Palmiter" <[larry--ecotope--com]>
> Hi Maarten, > > I am very sorry to hear this news. I think there is a current and on-going > need for scripts such as Rugby. There are many REBOL users who will not be > going the full IOS/Express route due to cost and other factors.
Uh, yeah. Like me :P I've *just* been becoming interested in Rugby. Right now, I have neither the need nor money for IOS, much as I'd like to play with it. I'm reminded of something from the QNX RTP news groups, where a new email client and email DDK were being announced as included in the latest QNX, and someone else posted, "Well, guess I'll quit developing my own, then." A couple people @qnx.com said things like, "Why? It's always useful to practice. A variety of choices always helps the users. We encourage a little competition here." Stuff like that. If you enjoy working on it anyways, continue working on it, and to hell with everything else ;) My US$0.02 --Charles

 [20/27] from: chalz:earthlink at: 18-Jan-2002 0:14


Not to be overly critical, but I sometimes miss the connecting threads in such things. Could you summarize (at least, in the future)? Thanks. --Charles

 [21/27] from: carl:cybercraft at: 18-Jan-2002 18:15


Thanks for the reply Holger. It cuts off one area of speculation and from your tone I think we can safely assume RT would not mind further developement of Rugby, which I'm sure all here are glad to hear. On 18-Jan-02, [holger--rebol--com] wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 10:26:07AM +1200, Carl Read wrote: >> Hmmm, perhaps that was the reference I was thinking of. My
<<quoted lines omitted: 17>>
> nothing preventing anyone else from picking up Rugby and continuing > development on it.
-- Carl Read

 [22/27] from: chalz:earthlink at: 18-Jan-2002 0:18


In some projects I've been working on (independent of any formal 'work' environment), the project head (same guy, multiple times) has pushed for publishing with the BSD license for just such reasons. Still, would anyone else be willing to re-post the materials on another site, and let us know? --Charles PS: Don't take the:
> Hmmm, perhaps that was the reference I was thinking of. My instincts > say to me that Maarten and RT have come to this decision together, > but that's just a gut feeling and could be wrong.
the wrong way, Holger. Lots of independent developers are wary of The Big Corporate Entity ;) After all, we've had years of people like MS to contend with. *chuckles*

 [23/27] from: carl:cybercraft at: 18-Jan-2002 19:17


On 18-Jan-02, Charles wrote:
> PS: Don't take the: >> Hmmm, perhaps that was the reference I was thinking of. My
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
> The Big Corporate Entity ;) After all, we've had years of people > like MS to contend with. *chuckles*
I'm not sure Holger did take it the wrong way. (ie. That I meant RT were being the heavy here.) But anyway, I chose the "have come to this decision together" bit carefully, as I didn't want to infer RT had put pressure on Maarten to shelve development. I could imagine for instance RT wishing to include Rugby-like features in REBOL and prefering to work with Maarten on its implimentation instead of creating an incompatible duplication of his efforts. In retrospect though, that scenero doesn't quite gel with such an abrupt ending of developement. Speculation loves an imformation vacuum... -- Carl Read

 [24/27] from: brett:codeconscious at: 18-Jan-2002 21:52


Hi,
> Still, would anyone > else be willing to re-post the materials on another site, and let us know?
I could within minutes. And I'm sure others would be just as willing. But I prefer to wait for Maarten to reclaim his spot! :) Brett.

 [25/27] from: jason:cunliffe:verizon at: 18-Jan-2002 2:20


> Speculation loves an imformation vacuum...
yes one of the fundamental laws of media physics.. rfeynmanism: (if you think you understands something you must be wrong} speculation hmm.. The way I heard it Maarten and Max were abducted by rebolutionary aliens scouting the universe. They urgently needed to mend their silicon rocketship which is currently bust in *lots* of strange pieces. They decided to to ask for help from a few brilliant engineers on earth. Some special people who might be able to help them connect the pieces together again. These are presently flung all over the galaxy, including parts which had not even been designed or imagined yet! As this was an important task, and as the aliens' english is not so good, they sensibly began by with plumb design's visual thesaurus [http://thesaurus.plumbdesign.com/index.html] after tweaking the controls [noun verb adverb adjective] they input the search data: [silicon object broke connect object see controls help] glass + rugby !! of course... ./Jason

 [26/27] from: jason:cunliffe:verizon at: 18-Jan-2002 3:52


> In some projects I've been working on (independent of any formal 'work' > environment), the project head (same guy, multiple times) has pushed for > publishing with the BSD license for just such reasons. Still, would
anyone
> else be willing to re-post the materials on another site, and let us know?
http://www.reboltech.com/library/scripts/rugby4.r http://www.reboltech.com/library/scripts/rugby_server.r http://www.reboltech.com/library/scripts/rugby-console.r http://www.reboltech.com/library/html/rugby4.html http://www.reboltech.com/library/html/rugby_server.html http://www.reboltech.com/library/html/rugby-console.html

 [27/27] from: jason:cunliffe:verizon at: 17-Jan-2002 23:31


> Just assumptions? Or do you know for sure that train of events are > the reasons?
I know nothing. No asssumptions .. just mystery + history. Time will tell us the rest. Ain't life grand?
> I can't see IOS being threatened by Rugby, but it's possible IOS does > Rugby better than Rugby. (Plus lots of other stuff of course.) And > anyway, with regards to Rugby, "You may use it (including > republishing) as the BSD license indicates if you stil have it." > We've just lost its original developer here - not Rugby itself.
Yes that is indeed the loss [if it proves to be that]..or perhaps just clearing the decks for something even better. So what's the plan now: dbms3r+rubgy4 = r3b4msbudgy / rugby4bsd3mr ? ./Jason

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