IT'S NOT FREE - MORE!
[1/5] from: robbo1mark::aol::com at: 22-May-2001 9:00
PEKR / EVERYBODY
PEKR my comments were NOT meant to be accusing
against any specific individuals & certainly
NOT you personally. I like you and agree with
about 99% of the comments you make on this list.
YES in certain ways RT Policies may or may not
hinder the progress of REBOL, as a technology,
in the ways you mentioned.
YES users do not care how RT pay the bills, just
like the BE Inc. versus Microsoft analogy you
mentioned. Companies exist to maximise profits,
users want maximum utility, that is the external
economic environment in which we ALL participate.
But RT still have to generate revenue for themselves
regardless whether we *CARE* about them or not.
As a user you don't have to pay for REBOL software
if it does NOT provide a sufficiently attractive
value proposition to you. The value derived must
be greater than the price, that is true of any
good or service.
REBOL TECHNOLOGIES Inc. dictate the license terms,
the prices and what features go into each product
release, you either accept those terms or you
don't it is as simple as that.
YOU can plead & cajole with Carl & RT to see things
from your perspective of point of view but at the
end of the day, they are free to decide & do what
suits their interests best. Hence no /Apache for the
time being at least.
I still stand by that you get nothing for nothing,
you must either contribute in terms of money or in
terms of investing your time & skills in creating
an environment that possibly suits your needs better.
There are many ways to further REBOL as a language
and as a technology. Support RT Inc. by buying their
products where they provide a good value proposition
to you as a user, promote REBOL as a technology if
publicity is your strength & writing is your skill.
If REBOL doesn't provide what features you need then
why not try to produce what functionality you need
by yourself & with the help of like minded others.
REBOL has lots of advantages with regards to PERL,
PYTHON, JAVA, TCL, RUBY, PHP, SCHEME / GUILE etc.
It curently has some big disadvantages too in terms
of libraries, extension modules, widespread adoption
and support, source code availability etc. etc.
However none of these other languages which provide
certain adavantages in some aspects over REBOL just
happened into existance. They are the result of years
of continuous hard work to get them where they are
today and to continue to extend them & improve them.
These languages and their various features don't just
magically come into existence, this only happens by
people caring enough about them to invest either their
time and / or money into making them a reality.
The exact same holds true for REBOL as a language, a
technology, and as a company.
REBOL *is* more than REBOL Technologies Inc., we the users and the community matter too.
It is a mutual dependancy, by all means complain about certain things they do, but whilst
they may listen they will not always act accordingly.
Their needs are not always exactly the same as your needs. Producers & Consumers will
always have differing goals and motivations, that is just the way of things.
Everybody should remember that, the RT folks are good people making great & useful products
at a fair price. If you don't like or agree with their terms & conditions then do something
about it! or else do nothing about it, just don't be surprised when everything doesn't
turn out specifically to your liking.
IF YOU WANT THINGS YOUR WAY THEN YOU'VE GOT TO MAKE IT HAPPEN!
Raindrops keep falling on my head, but that doesn't mean my eyes will soon be turning
red, crying's not for me, 'cause I'm never gonna stop the rain by complaining! because
I'm FREE, nothing's worrying me.
That's all
Mark Dickson
[2/5] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 22-May-2001 16:02
[Robbo1Mark--aol--com] wrote:
> PEKR / EVERYBODY
>
> PEKR my comments were NOT meant to be accusing
> against any specific individuals & certainly
> NOT you personally. I like you and agree with
> about 99% of the comments you make on this list.
It was not so personal as it could seem to be, I am OK :-)
While I can agree with all you said - there is simply the fact of another POV, as you
said.
Of course that RT can do whatever they want with their product. But I think most ppl
complain here, just because they DO CARE of Rebol and its future. We use several various
tools here at work, and I really don't care if I pay for them or not. But I like Rebol
so much that I will better express what do I really
think - and I think that the way as it is now, RT itself hurts their profits! We don't
have wide enough userbase .. yet. If Rebol would be used by some 10 mil. ppl, XX books
were written about it, XX Rebol based products sold, then OK, let's charge for it. But
first - let's find some way how to spread Rebol to
the masses.
RT switched back from tool development company and decided to go with /Express. Just
few weeks before /Express was ready we saw sudden strategy change back towards the tools.
Now /Express sleeps somewhere on product page, with no further advertising ...
So if we are talking tools once again, why to abandon /Apache for e.g.? Do you think
that someone will develop some site building tool based upon CGI? Without database access?
Bear in mind please, that most of such tools come from hobbyists first. How do we support
them? By selling them 350 USD /Command?
Average sallary here in Czech Republic is some 500 - 600 USD, and I can imagine countries
where the situation is even worse. DocKimbel for e.g. decided to stop FastCGI /Pro based
development, because /Command will provide it.
Someone mentioned RT failure to discuss involved userbase before they decide to do some
strategic change. I would like to add, that we a) never heard from CEO (and I though
we are kind of community like Amiga Inc. has) b) never heard about what is planned for
future - all we know is - "there is plan" :-)
I just hope RT + Eight Inc. finds some way to make rebol more popular and widespread
...
... but enough of complaints - RT has now some feedback to read and decide their further
steps ....
going to study "Rugby" script - seems promissing :-)
-pekr-
[3/5] from: gjones05:mail:orion at: 22-May-2001 10:33
From: "Petr Krenzelok"
<snip>
> going to study "Rugby" script - seems promissing :-)
Is "Rugby" a typo, meaning Ruby? Or are you referring to a REBOL script?
--Scott Jones
[4/5] from: ryanc:iesco-dms at: 22-May-2001 9:14
No typo Scott,
Check it out, its a system for executing functions on remote machines. Pretty cool stuff,
you can choose what functions you want to export. I will set up one
today on my server at work, so people can check it out. Get Rugby using Desktop from
the library at rebol under tcp.
--Ryan
GS Jones wrote:
> From: "Petr Krenzelok"
> <snip>
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>
> [rebol-request--rebol--com] with "unsubscribe" in the
> subject, without the quotes.
--
Ryan Cole
Programmer Analyst
www.iesco-dms.com
707-468-5400
I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination.
Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is
limited. Imagination encircles the world.
-Einstein
[5/5] from: ryanc:iesco-dms at: 22-May-2001 9:41
Like all of us, I care very much about REBOL too. This is really a tight relationship
we have. We owe RT for providing such a wonderful language, and they owe us for taking
the time to learn and develop it. For RT to succeed, we must succeed. For us to succeed,
RT must succeed. This whole incident has
demostrated the strength of this relationship. When RT did something that hurt, we felt
it. What amazes me is how many did not say "ouch," I would like to commend them.
RT please reconsider. We want to sell your products. How about providing incentives?
I would love to get paid to turn people on to REBOL! Or maybe just charge on sold programs,
this way we can still sneak it in to internal usage. There are many alternatives.
--Ryan
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