[REBOL] Re: starting to be really late!?
From: jason:cunliffe:verizon at: 7-Jan-2004 15:34
> First - let me add that I almost completely disagree here. So, here we go
> why:
I thinks an argument worth having so thanks for your comments.
> It has to be defined what does invisible mean?
I mean all non-gui tasks. smart programmable embedded messaging transport,
data/event access and handling, connectivity between applications,
information engineering..
> disaster? And that is why View 1.3 is under development? That is why
> direct draw modes were/are planned? That is why Carl told us that
> multimedia is his second name? :-)
/View exists and needs work. But 1.3 is not radical change as I understand.
It may be his second name and I've owned several Amigas, but the honest
reality is Rebol is almost completely crippled for multimedia at this time.
Rebol multimedia a is about the level of 1995 even 1988 in too many
respects
How many formats can it even talk to ?
Look you can't even do basic binary clipboard copy and paste or drag'n'drop
of an image or sound into a /View application
That's insane in 2004 and says up front this is a very limited cool demo
proof of concept gui which does not play with the rest of the multimedia
universe. Will that be in /View 1.3 ?" If so I apologize on that count.
Multimedia is many things, but surely includes interoperability with
real-world formats that other people and tools use.
> what? Why? :-) What is the single advantage of making flash in rebol?
> That you would be able to run your "rebol" app inside the browser?
Rebol on the browser would be nice. But the whole point is that Flash is
moving to the desktop and the server. There is a huge opportunity for
embedded dynamic server-side and peer-peer dynamic flash generation. For
example even desktop flash apps still can't save .swf file at runtime.
Macromedia change their flash server-side tech about every 18 months. Latest
is Flex. They've all been expensive
> Or where can I find flash and not rebol? Unless there is one-button-press
> conversion of rebol VID app into flash, it still means to program
> separately for View and for Flash ...
hmm... VID-Flash was not what I had in mind.
Rebol is not good for building whole applications Flash, but it could
dynamically transform data/event/mesage streams into swf to be loaded by
parent Flash applcations in many useful ways.
> >pro adds 400 fscommands including socket, http, ftp, mail, file i/o..
What
> >more does one want or need? Even a Rebol-based swf2exe for Windows, Mac
and
> >Linux [in that order] could be a very successful and useful product. And
a
> >viable way to introduce Rebol to much larger and visible audience .
> >
> That can be done without any need for Flash.
What does Rebol offer?
- brilliant elegant different fun innovative programming language --- I love
it
- a very tiny but smart and friendly community --- kudos and thanks but not
enough to sustain development on many fronts or persuade CTO etc
- some built-in Internet protocols --- that's everywhere now
- weak gui with weak documentation and not even a layout IDE
- no Unicode :-(
--- oops sorry there goes the rest of the world. bye.
China Japan Korea Vietnam never heard of them !
Flash now provides graphic designers and programmers with an platform and
tools to work in many ways.
You want to load or server data then interface it in diverse modern graphic
ways?
Flash wins hands down.
- REBOL could be a powerful complement to Flash for data and messaging. -
Flash can be a powerful complement to Rebol for gui front end.
- There is large growing community of Flash programmers. How many people
know /View?
How many books or web sites share /View components etc ?
> I can install Apache in 3 mins, configure in 2 - so 5 min to run profi
> http server on my desktop machine. You mentioned Jabber - so, OK - that
> is something i agree with, if you think something like more advanced IOS
> server, with direct communication and also polled communication, ability
> to use some file-sharing principles, sync to multiple servers ... kind
> of grid of various protocols, that would be cool. I can imagine rights,
> roles, rules, workflow engines, which would allow you to model various
> scenarios - that is REAL business oportunity, and it is a pity RT
> dropped IOS development - it could be much better.
Yes I agree.
> >How about a really good mod_rebol component for Apache?
> >
> >
> I agree - but then - fast-cgi is not all that bad .... and you also
> mentioned money - how does RT makes money with that?
Sell a good rebol http server suitable for robust Vanilla integration and
one-click install
At a fair price I'd buy some :-)
Look at where Dave Winer's Manila - Radio Userland development is all
going. WikiBlogs were the major new web technology growth since 2001. Now
moblogs and fotoblogs are happening. http://joi.ito.com/ and friends
> that RT should done the most general things ever and the rest should be
> done by user-base. My top priority is:
>
> - general VM dialect - which would allow for to use subset of commands,
> would be fast and would not require to write external modules in C, as
> they mean end to cross-platform scripts unless ported to certain
> platform. TAO did it right with Intent imo. btw - on AltME world Carl
> told us, that such kind of VM would take one person average month to
> code. Imo worth real consideration then.
Yes with you 100% there
> - if not general VM, so dedicated VMs then - we call them dialects -
> currently we heave 'secure, 'remove-each ... we want at least other for
> fast gfx handling.
ok
> - language extensions as proposed by RT ... but then who knows what do
> they mean, no further info was released yet.
I know the feeling and am guilty myself on too many occasions ;-)
> Yes, it may be right, but I want external handled image data to be
> displayable in View face! Period! Are you really interesting in non View
> windows? Then you can just use kind of Core/Pro product. Cyphre showed
> nice demo of OpenGL demo - but because we are not able to give face a
> pointer to external buffer of certain size, we have to use memory
> copying, which slowes whole thing down. but it was entered into View 1.3
> tracker. I think that sometimes the difference lays in details. And that
> is why we ask for more generalisation of language, so that RT does it,
> and opens oportunities for others to step-in with feature usage. You may
> be interested in apache + sql, I may be interested in IOS kind of
> system, but Cyhre may be able to build Scala killer in half a year, if
> certain features are implemented/some things changed.
Fair point.
I want open programmable graphics/multimedia toolkits that have an active
enough community behind them. Processing is an very interesting new
development for example
http://proce55ing.net/
It now has JSyn -Java synthesis extension added
http://www.pitaru.com/sonia/
I'd LOVE to see Rebol interface to VideoLan
http://videolan.org
Surprised no-one responded last time I posted about it.
> Ah, now I completly see - it is misunderstanding - I didn't meant media
> as a real media - just a bit more faster and smoother blitting,
> transitions for nicer GUIs ...
FASTER BLIT -- aahh why didn't you say so sooner? Yes we all need that
LoL
cheers
- Jason
