[REBOL] REBOL, AMIGA/TAO & MICRO$OFT DOT-NET (Long!)
From: edinburgh:veitchi at: 29-Sep-2000 22:01
This one is for all you AMIGANS out there! Petr?
Whilst perusing the Amiga website yesterday & reading
about "The Amiverse" Amiga Digital Environment & it's various layers &
foundation technologies, I came across the following sentence......
In addition, Amiga is working on a revolutionary common language that
unites command line, scripting, control and serious application development.
My immediate thoughts were this smells like REBOL.
I've been reading snippets about the new Amiga plans for the last year
or so, things like Amino / Aqua, Phoenix Consortium to the new
Amiga/Tao platform & software development kit etc.
How strong are the ties between REBOL & the new AMIGA environment ?
Are REBOL independent or subsidiary in the whole Amiga
scheme of things?
Is REBOL/Express with /Command, /View and at some future date
/Multimedia going to be the foundation for computing in the next
decade or just as another jigsaw piece in the AMIVERSE built upon
a Tao runs anywhere and everywhere operating system.
Other integral parts of the Amiverse and Amiga Foundation Layers
are built upon objects and applications which according to the
Amiga SDK literature can be developed using the "Certified Worlds Fastest"
Java Runtime Environment, GNU C Compiler Kit or in the
bleeding edge TAO Virtual Processor Assembly Language.
These languages compile to portable binaries than will run on
every platform, processor & operating system that Tao Elate OS
runs on.
How does REBOL fit in here? As an integral part ? although I
don't see anywhere that say this, or as something which is
complementary to the Amiverse but somehow still separate
and different.
I think the whole platform independence space is going to become
very crowded with a lot of different but similar technologies
competing for the same mindshare.
If REBOL are platform and operating system independent and not
positioning themselves firmly & squarely behind the new Amiga
developments then why did they pass up on the publicity & benefits
which would have accrued from the much heralded QNX Product
Announcements & Releases this week.
Is it because QNX will compete for the same space as Amiga/Tao?
or was just because with loads going on at REBOL just now
with /Command, working on /Express, new developments to
/Core & /View that a reliable working QNX version of /View
was just not a high enough priority?
Regards QNX , I remember reading a translation of an article which
appeared in a German magazine from about a year ago in which
Carl stated that in addition to using a Classic Amiga with his Kids'
that he had been spending a lot of time using QNX Neutrino as well
as BE operating system which he complimented as being based
on taking the original goals of the Amiga & Apple Mac to the
next level with todays technologies.
REBOL have both QNX & BE versions currently in the works
and certain experimental builds available, however I noticed that
within weeks of the Amiga/Tao announcement a version of
REBOL for Tao Elate appeared, again is this REBOL working
in tandem with Amiga or shadowing them but ensuring REBOL
works on all these platforms by themselves to ensure they have
a fall back position.
Modern multimedia applications are built upon three main things,
hardware, i.e. CPU processor type, Operating System and lastly
Graphics Layer.
If REBOL truly are independent then having /View & later /Multimedia
available across all & every platform is going to lead to having to
maintain a truly enormous code base to cover every range of
CPU + OS + Graphics Layer.
Think about the whole multitude of possible permutations & combinations.
A subset might be as follows;
Intel 86 + MS Windows + GDI / Win32's
PPC + Mac OS X + Aqua
Intel 86 + BE OS + Be Media Layer
PPC + BE OS + Be Media Layer
Intel 86 + Linux + XFree86
Sparc + Linux + XFree86
PPC + Linux + XFree86
Intel 86 or Sparc or PPC etc + Linux + MicroWindows
Intel 86 or Sparc or PPC etc + Linux + QT Embedded
Every CPU + Tao Elate + Amiga Foundation Layers
Every CPU + QNX + Photon Micro GUI
Add in Solaris, Palm, Symbian, FreeBSD, Unix as well
as NETBSD which runs on every platform known to man
including ports to the Sega Dreamcast & Sony Playstation
then the list of combinations becomes huge.
Can REBOL independently support all this menagerie of
hardware & software ?
True the embedded & device market is going to be huge,
and on a will involve computing on a much more pervasive
& integrated & massive scale than we've seen hitherto in
the personal computer & workstation era.
The next generation of digital televisions, games consoles,
screen & keyboard WEB telephones, handheld computers
etc are going to be everywhere & really bring computing
into the everyday lives of the masses so there will be space
for everyone like Rebol, Amiga, QNX, Linux, Be, Microsoft
Palm, as well as Sony, Sega & Nintendo who are all aiming
to get as much of this enlarged computing pie.
Who will win? Who will fall by the wayside?
The current picture is so big that it's hard to see it clearly from
all the possible angles and who's technologies will emerge
as the major players.
If I was a betting man I would be thinking along the lines of;
Microsoft
Linux / Free Software Variants
Amiga / Tao
QNX
Be
Intel
Sony
Sega
Nintendo
Into this mix through Language technology and I believe that we have
a great future & potential with REBOL, maybe not in it's current guise
or ownership, we'll see how REBOL increasing in popularity plays
out with regards to the Major Computer Giants either Buying it Out
or developing their compatible implementations and also once
open source implementations become available.
Open Source maybe the only way viable to support every platform with
REBOL, that way platform developers & enthusiasts could be responsible for
maintaining & developing REBOL like technology on
their chosen platform. Carl Sassenrath & a consortium of parties with
major interests in REBOL as a technology could develop & write
standards & specifications for REBOL, whilst platform specific
implementation is left to each platform group.
Aside from REBOL, JAVA now stands as the most popular Language
currently in use on the planet, with massive resources devoted to it
in industry & education, I don't see this changing anytime soon.
Whilst it may not be our cup of tea, it's obviously massively popular
& will continue to be a significant technology for modern software
development.
REBOL's popularity will undoubtedly continue to grow but will only become
mainstream once currently missing features like multimedia
are implemented and it becomes possible to develop plug-in
components for REBOL to enable a wider & more rapid development
of REBOL's capabilities as a technology, the growing trend towards
open source in technology will also affect REBOL's prospects
until capable open source implementations are available.
Which bring me finally to everyones favourite baddie, the worlds
biggest & richest & popular ( by installed / monopolistic numbers! )
software compnany, Micro$oft (or Microshaft as some might say.)
They do & will continue to have an enormous impact of the whole
of the computer industry, even if they are split up, they will not simply
go away, the will continue to be the biggest & most powerful players
in the market. They are too big & too powerful simply to go away.
The massive installed base of Windows means they will continue
to enjoy substantial income & profits for years to come with their
bi-annual upgrade & replacement strategies.
What are their plans to protect their massive advantage, financial
income & power, as well as fight of JAVA, Linux & Open Source
/ Free Software and grab a lions share of the forecasted massive growth in
the embedded & computer devices market ?
Answer Windows.Net ( That's in marketing speak DOT NET ! )
Although Purley Imaginative & Fictional Vaporware at present
Microsoft has announced plans & strategies based on the growing
use of XML & Internet technologies to integrate these more &
more into future releases of their operating system & application
software, they're also promoting web-services which is software
& applications in which data can reside anywhere or everywhere
on the internet & is provided as a service for a fee or a subscription
package to the user.
Central to this new DOT NET world of distributed applications &
data storage will be the COMMON LANGUAGE RUNTIME.
Similar in concept to the JAVA engine this will be an interpreter
& compiler for programs which will produce executables which
will run identically across the whole spectrum of platforms on
which the Common Language Runtime operates. This wil be
possible probably by using some kind of portable byte-code
like Java.
What will be innovative about the Common Language Runtime
will be that you can program for it in a mutlitude of languages
which is plans to support. For example the will be Compilers
& Interpreters for the Common Language Runtime for
Visual Basic, C++, C#, Java, COBOL, Perl, Python, Delphi
TCL etc, in this way developers & companies can protect
their existing investments & sunk costs in their favoured
language technology whilst still producing software which
works on the all the platforms the CLR supports.
Whilst the API's to support all these various languages will
by necessity need to be open and transparent on a scale
hitherto unthinkable in terms of Microsoft, I've no doubt
in my mind that the Common Language Runtime will be
highly proprietary and will be the mechanism by which
Microsoft will endeavour to maintain their iron grip and
domination of the computer industry.
The Windows operating system like most operating systems
in the new distributed paradigm will continue to be eroded
in terms of importance of use & income / profitability as newer,
better & cheaper operating systems continue to be developed
like Tao, Be, QNX, NetBSD, Embedded Linux etc.
Who controls the lions share of the distributed applications
engine market will control the future of computing.
In this way Microsoft & their common language runtime will
battle it out for supremacy with Amiga/Tao, Linux + JAVA etc.
How will REBOL fare in this new world? They have the right
ideas & a great technology in development but can they
muster the resources to support all the platforms and gain
developer mindshare away from JAVA & M$ Dot Net.
Can they do it alone or will it require the assistance of a
Sun, IBM or HP to buy them out. Will Open Source be a
part of the answer? Will Carl & Co. throw in their lot &
hitch their wagons to the success to the new Amiga
Digital Environment & the "AMIVERSE".
Sometimes I also think back to Carl's early comments
about REBOL being a two phase masterplan.
Firstly a better means of expression, which we see in
REBOL the language that we all know & love.
Secondly a better means of operation, a small, compact
& powerful operating system closely tied to the language.
This thought continues to bug me as I try to elicit meaning
from the deliberately evasive description.
Does this mean that by developing threads, processess
& multitasking for REBOL as well as enabling a way to
compiling to executable that we can have a REBOL
operating system in the same way that FORTH can be
it's own contained environment encompassing Language,
Compiler, Interactive Interpreter, round robin Multitasking
Operating System as well as Application programs built
on top. Is this what Carl's cryptic announcement meant,
because that really would be something REBOLUTIONARY.
He has the knowlege & experience to create such a beast
or did he simply mean building a REBOL engine on top
of a modern, small, powerful & progressive operating
system like a Be, QNX or Amiga/Tao.
Only time will tell us the answers, however Iam sure that
REBOL the technology has a great future and we on this
list will do well to follow it's progress & try to help shape
it's future to our liking and ensure success & prosperity
for Carl, the REBOL team and not forgetting ourselves.
I just hope and pray that in 5 years time I'm not here on
this list trying to drum up encouragement for OSCAR: :REBOL
an open source REBOL for the insidious Micro$oft Common
Language Runtime.
Anyway, sorry everbody for this absurdly long rant about REBOL
and the future of distributed computing, this is my two cents
worth, however it will be an area which will have a profound
affect on all us REBOLLERS, so let me know if you agree or
disagree with anything I've said.
Anyway Petr,
What does that blurb on the Amiga Website mean when it says
Amiga is developing............etc.
Cheers,
Mark Dickson
