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Flash tech? Was Re: Re: (No subject)Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 17:20:09

 [1/8] from: cyphre:seznam:cz at: 21-Nov-2001 18:52


Hi Jason, Donald and all, I'm everyday working with Macromedia Director so I don't have so much experience with Flash directly but I think these two products are very similar in some aspects. From my POV Macromedia stuff and their philosophy is very poor against Rebol. Yes, Flash and Director has some more gfx features than /View but man, It is version 5(Flash) and 8.5(Director)!! I think Macromedia has just one big monopol in their "internet-multimedia" field/market because there is not almost any good alternative technology to compete with. If RT guys would work on /View multimedia stuff intesively for about one year they could have made /View as a big competitior against Flash(Director). Rebol/View, although it lacks (for now) things like vector gfx, font engine, rotation, alpha channels, free sound, streaming, multimedia format support, embedded plugin, it has lots of advatnages...very good core, the language itself, the communication stuff such as ports, protocols, and very good mutiplatfom standard quality, cheap prize. (I believe, most of you will agree that we couldnot compare Rebol against crappy ActionScript or even Lingo.) Anyway both technologies has own cool developers and software pieces( just have a look at: http://www.vectorlounge.com/04_amsterdam/jam/wireframe.html ) I don't want to make any flame wars against MM fans/haters. I just wanted to point out the possibilities for Rebol/View(Hey RT guys! What about eat few pieces from big Macromedias money-pie? ;-) ). I still believe RT could make from /View far more better multimedia engine than all MM products are... just my 2 cents ;) regards Cyphre ----- Original Message ----- From: "Donald Dalley" <[ddalley--idirect--com]> To: <[rebol-list--rebol--com]> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 4:49 PM Subject: [REBOL] Flash tech? Was Re: Re: (No subject)Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 17:20:09 -0500

 [2/8] from: max:quazart at: 21-Nov-2001 11:40


I respect and agree with your comments Donald, I just want to put flash in another perspective... If flash is used NOT as web site but as a stand alone tool for creating MM applications, then a mix of rebol and flash it REALLY nice using the best of both it allows us to fill rebol's current MM holes. my two cents! -Max ----- Original Message ----- From: "Donald Dalley" <[ddalley--idirect--com]> To: <[rebol-list--rebol--com]> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 10:49 AM Subject: [REBOL] Flash tech? Was Re: Re: (No subject)Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 17:20:09 -0500

 [3/8] from: pwoodward::cncdsl::com at: 21-Nov-2001 13:11


All -
> I'm everyday working with Macromedia Director so I don't have so much > experience with Flash directly but I think these two products are very > similar in some aspects.
I've been doing some Flash work for a while now - not so much as a designer - but with Flash 5, integrating it with a dynamic JSP/Java backend. I think the purpose of Flash as compared to /View is much more narrowly defined in scope. Flash and Director certainly include many more graphics tools - better handling of Alpha channels, some 3D tools, etc. But neither of them are really intended for applications. Sure, you can build a multimedia presentation application for distribution on CD with Director... But these things aren't typically much more than that. The real question is what is RT's goal - are they aiming at the Flash/Director market? Probably not. Flash can be used to make some pretty nice looking front ends. And now with it's addition of dynamic data - you can actually link a flash front end to a database backend - using your webserver as middleware. But, Flash isn't infrastructure - REBOL can be.
> Anyway both technologies has own cool developers and software pieces( just > have a look at: > http://www.vectorlounge.com/04_amsterdam/jam/wireframe.html )
Pretty cool - though just showing the Flash movie slams my 800MHz laptop into 100% CPU usage. Which in turn pretty shortly flips the exhaust fan on... Not that some REBOL scripts haven't done this - but I think there is something fishy with how Flash handles timing... - Porter Woodward

 [4/8] from: jasonic:panix at: 21-Nov-2001 14:09


Cyphre" <[cyphre--seznam--cz]> wrote:
> >From my POV Macromedia stuff and their philosophy is very poor against > Rebol. Yes, Flash and Director has some more gfx features than /View but > man, It is version 5(Flash) and 8.5(Director)!! I think Macromedia has
just
> one big monopol in their "internet-multimedia" field/market because there
is
> not almost any good alternative technology to compete with.
I agree. That's why I am so very happy to find REBOL, and right now while /View is developing in such positive ways. Many exciting things I was discovering 5 years ago with LINGO objects and 'net Xtras [thanks in part to Peter Small's ideas] are now trivial and implicit to REBOL. But I have used too many softwares on too many OS to expend much energy bitching about them. All worth considering have their virtues and vices. How I can use them, learn from them, imrove them, indivudally and in especially in unexpected combinations is what drives me most... It was concern about Macromedia which pusghed to look for better solution. I found Python, but not enough mutlimedia [it's developing].. and then on to REBOL.. As we all know, the best art/ideas/technologies rarely gain market prominence/dominance [don't get them Amigans started..]. The best art/ideas/technologies often refuse to die fully either, often reborn in curious ways at curious times Like it or not, Macromedia DOES have a fairly juggernaut grip right now on the distribution market, and perhaps even worse upon the popular understanding / imagination of what is possible :-(( .. that's why I am interested to exploit their explotation to get REBOL in lots of new places: visbly and invisibly, via SWF, PNG whatever else works and is good to explore Flash has been mostly abused, thanks largely to dotbomb stupidity. Despite Macromedia's handling, FLASH does embody some very important good _ideas_... ones we shall see again and again.. ones which REBOL might embrace. I argue that the most important idea of Flash for REBOL to enmobody is the nested timeline object paradigm. The best programmers on Flashcoders, have been developing ways incerasingly to abstract the timeline to create time objects so they have richer prpgram control of animation behaviors and dynamics. They are in effect virtualizing Flash. They really only delpend upion the player. The rest is increasingly code, which could/should be in any langauge on any platform. An encouraging example I came across recently is the PySDL, a Python module that provides access to the SDL library's functionality. SDL = Simple Direct Media Layer http://www.devolution.com/~slouken/projects/SDL/ <quote> Simple DirectMedia Layer is a cross-platform multimedia library designed to provide fast access to the graphics framebuffer and audio device. It is used by MPEG playback software, emulators, and many popular games, including the award winning Linux port of "Civilization: Call To Power." Simple DirectMedia Layer supports Linux, Win32, BeOS, MacOS, Solaris, IRIX, and FreeBSD. SDL is written in C, but works with C++ natively, and has bindings to several other languages, including Ada, Eiffel, ML, Perl, PHP, Python, and Ruby. </quote> ... but not yet REBOL :-( REBOL seems to me a very interesting envirnoment to begin modelling such a system freshly. In time we may have a native display engine, but surely a wider chioce we can write to: open engine://somethingmultimedia write display://lovelydisplay interested?
> If RT guys would work on /View multimedia stuff intesively for about one > year they could have made /View as a big competitior against > Flash(Director). Rebol/View, although it lacks (for now) things like
vector
> gfx, font engine, rotation, alpha channels, free sound, streaming, > multimedia format support, embedded plugin, it has lots of
advatnages...very
> good core, the language itself, the communication stuff such as ports, > protocols, and very good mutiplatfom standard quality, cheap prize. (I > believe, most of you will agree that we couldnot compare Rebol against > crappy ActionScript or even Lingo.)
Yes Right RT are sensible to avoid tackling REBOL multimedia capabilities too soon. The download is small, the scope very wide, and the performrance swift. It is a very tough business problem overwhelmed largely by distribution politics and techno-sabotage. The deadly 3Ps: player plugin platform. Since /View does not yet have these things, how can we get to there from here ?? a: use SWF/SVG well WITH REBOL b: experiment, design, and encourage RT and others to improve /View c: ?? perhaps you have a good idea
> Anyway both technologies has own cool developers and software pieces( just > have a look at: > http://www.vectorlounge.com/04_amsterdam/jam/wireframe.html )
LOL: very nice.. thanks for that one!
> I don't want to make any flame wars against MM fans/haters. I just wanted
to
> point out the possibilities for Rebol/View(Hey RT guys! What about eat few > pieces from big Macromedias money-pie? ;-) ). I still believe RT could
make
> from /View far more better multimedia engine than all MM products are...
.. Let's hope so cheers ./Jason

 [5/8] from: ammonjohnson:ya:hoo at: 21-Nov-2001 17:15


----- Original Message ----- From: "Cyphre" <[cyphre--seznam--cz]> To: <[rebol-list--rebol--com]> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 10:52 AM Subject: [REBOL] Re: Flash tech? Was Re: Re: (No subject)Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 17:20:09 -0500
> Hi Jason, Donald and all, > I'm everyday working with Macromedia Director so I don't have so much
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
> Rebol. Yes, Flash and Director has some more gfx features than /View but > man, It is version 5(Flash) and 8.5(Director)!! I think Macromedia has
just
> one big monopol in their "internet-multimedia" field/market because there
is
> not almost any good alternative technology to compete with. > If RT guys would work on /View multimedia stuff intesively for about one > year they could have made /View as a big competitior against > Flash(Director). Rebol/View, although it lacks (for now) things like
vector
> gfx, font engine, rotation, alpha channels, free sound, streaming, > multimedia format support, embedded plugin, it has lots of
advatnages...very
> good core, the language itself, the communication stuff such as ports, > protocols, and very good mutiplatfom standard quality, cheap prize.
And there is no doubt in my mind that Carl is already headed there! Enjoy!! Ammon

 [6/8] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 22-Nov-2001 0:51


Ammon Johnson wrote:
>----- Original Message ----- >From: "Cyphre" <[cyphre--seznam--cz]>
<<quoted lines omitted: 31>>
>Enjoy!! >Ammon
Ammon - I would not like to dissapoint you, but - although Carl told us some year ago that multimedia is his second name and that Holger reworking effect pipeline seems to be priority to him, RT still has to solve other things - IOS e.g. So, as for media stuff, e.g. additions asked by Cyphre and possibly others (exposed convolve, rotation, ability to recursively stop events ("freeze faces" while in view) and other few twists to view kernel - better ask Cyphre about them), I think, sadly, we will have to wait .... It is a shame, because we have few skilled rebollers here, who could produce more eye candy stuff and attract more ppl to Rebol that way ... -pekr-

 [7/8] from: cyphre:seznam:cz at: 22-Nov-2001 10:36


Hi Jason and all,
> > Anyway both technologies has own cool developers and software pieces(
just
> > have a look at: > > http://www.vectorlounge.com/04_amsterdam/jam/wireframe.html ) > > LOL: very nice.. thanks for that one! >
try this one ;) http://www.virtualom.com regards, Cyphre PS: <pray> If we had a little more enhanced /View ;) </pray>

 [8/8] from: ammonjohnson:y:ahoo at: 22-Nov-2001 16:59


Petr said:
> >> > >
<<quoted lines omitted: 14>>
> produce more eye candy stuff and attract more ppl to Rebol that way ... > -pekr-
And you won't dissapoint me, I was aware of this. The fact remains that RT *MUST* have some amazing eye candy or people just won't go for it. Carl is aware of this, there is a reason it taken 20 to get REBOL to the point it is at right now, he *IS* going to make REBOL the *MOST* powerful eve candy enginge *EVER*, although it might be him years from now to before REBOL is there. Enjoy!! Ammon PS The wait will be well worth it. The good things in life don't come easy. ;-)

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