The Industry Needs REBOL But Thinks it Wants Perl
[1/20] from: princepawn:mailandnews at: 20-Sep-2000 9:08
As I'm sure you all know, if you type rebol as a keyword into any jobsearch
engine you will find no jobs anywhere. The situation with Perl is quite the
opposite. Here at work, I had just finished up a slick REBOL script to do
encrypted ftp file transfers that was 1/4th the size of the legacy Perl
script. My boss was somewhat willing to accept a new language based on my
description of it as easy to maintain, simple, yet powerful. But in the end,
he said drop the REBOL version based on asking some of his friends about REBOL
- and none had heard of it and none were sure that REBOL.com would not be just
another washed up dot-com in another year or so.
So, what I have been working on is a Perl implementation of the REBOL
interpreter so that I can say "I am using the REBOL Perl module" and not tell
them I am using a different language.
In addition, the hidden-source methodology of RT pisses me off. I still cant
run REBOL on my Debian/Linux machine and probably would've been able to had I
been able to compile it myself. A perl implementation would run anywhere Perl
would. And then I could get rid the console-oriented nature of REBOL when I
felt like it.
So what do you think? My guess is that there is far too much uninformed
interest in doing things in Perl and that my Perl inmplementation of
REBOL/Core is the only way to hide the wolf of REBOL in the sheep's clothing
of Perl.
To close, I also am not sure I will ever be able to command the type of pay I
am commanding to do Perl programming and my stack of bills is something REBOL
has not figured out how to reduce.
terrence-brannon: [[princepawn--yahoo--com] perl-refugee myth-gamer]
free-email: http://www.MailAndNews.com
free-usenet: http://www.mailAndNews.com
; all the above is real REBOL code, believe it or not.
[2/20] from: capolunghi:att at: 20-Sep-2000 13:36
Ehhhh... maybe if we package Rebol with the words "Microsoft" in front of
it, people will accept it more readily.
Joe
[3/20] from: news:ted:husted at: 20-Sep-2000 13:46
On 9/20/2000 at 9:08 AM [princepawn--MailAndNews--com] wrote:
>So what do you think? My guess is that there is far too much
uninformed interest in doing things in Perl and that my Perl
inmplementation of REBOL/Core is the only way to hide the wolf of
REBOL in the sheep's clothing of Perl.
Jingoism aside, your boss did made a good business decision. If you get
hit by a bus, he can easily find a new Perl programmer to maintain the
script. Finding a new REBOL programmer might be more difficult. The
real cost of software is more often not development, but maintenance.
Something that REBOL needs but doesn't have is a killer app that can be
sold with a maintenance contract. A working enterprise portal, like
what the vaporific .COM site describes, would be great. Once a backbone
application is in place, it would be easier to then use REBOL for other
things.
Another growth area is control panels for ISPs or Webmasters, to make
it easy to configure a Web site without calling the help desk or
resorting to a command line. Several of these are now being done in
Perl, but could easily be done in REBOL, and would look great in /VIEW.
Again, if you are selling someone a real application with a support
contract, rather than a miscellaneous script, the dynamics start to
change.
Personally, I wouldn't feel good about writing something in REBOL and
then pretending it's Perl. Sounds like something the marketing boys in
Redmond might dream up.
-T.
[4/20] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 20-Sep-2000 19:58
----- Original Message -----
From: <[capolunghi--att--com]>
To: <[list--rebol--com]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 7:36 PM
Subject: [REBOL] The Industry Needs REBOL But Thinks it Wants Perl Re:
> Ehhhh... maybe if we package Rebol with the words "Microsoft" in front of
> it, people will accept it more readily.
Hmm, then Carl would have to rename VID to VIC (Visual Interface Classes)
and MS would finally got sued by Tim Rue for stealing his VIC name :-)
-pekr-
[5/20] from: ryanc:iesco-dms at: 20-Sep-2000 11:22
Terrance,
It is unfortunate your "boss" is so stand off-ish. I have found if you give a
manager plenty of things to do, they leave you alone. When you work alone, you
get more control over what you do.
I discovered this several years ago, I was in a tough situation where my manager
thought she needed to micro analyze everything I did. So I made a list of URGENT
things my manager NEEDED to get done for me to make my department more
PRODUCTIVE. Every time she came by my desk I rattled off about 3 things from my
list. Soon after, she just avoided me, allowing me to go about my work as I
always had--my way.
To hide the source, or not to hide the source. That is the question. Whether it
is nobler in the mind...
If I was president of REBOL I wouldn't consider releasing my source for quite a
few more years. The fear is that software giant X will analyze your source, build
their own version, and of course with their super mega marketing department, lay
waste to your efforts. Once REBOL is established, the marketing law "First in
mind" comes to play, REBOL could go open source much more safely. I also might
consider going open source if the company was in a desperate position for
popularity.
>From an investment standpoint, now we are talking about the green stuff that gives
us REBOL, going open source could be bad, mainly because, as far as I know, its
long term effects at best are unpredictable from a financial standpoint. What
about Red Hat and other Linux companies? They of course have a much better
argument for future profitability--taking on the biggest. Whose market is REBOL
taking on? A small part of Borlands and Java--something I expect has not even
been profitable.
When it comes to becoming profitable, as usaul I am sure REBOL's got something "up
their sleeve." Just keep in mind that convincing investors is entirely different
than convincing programmers.
As far as paying bills goes, I have found that smaller businesses don't really
know or care what programming language you use. You cant find these guys with a
net search, you actually have to knock on doors or use that telephone thing. Many
of them need reports made, so to open maybe just ask them if they have any reports
that they spend more than a day on. Often you do one little project and they
reallize what a computer can REALLY do and invite you back for more. I find these
type of jobs the most fun and fulfilling.
Good luck,
--Ryan
[princepawn--MailAndNews--com] wrote:
> As I'm sure you all know, if you type rebol as a keyword into any jobsearch
> engine you will find no jobs anywhere. The situation with Perl is quite the
<<quoted lines omitted: 24>>
> free-usenet: http://www.mailAndNews.com
> ; all the above is real REBOL code, believe it or not.
--
Ryan Cole
Programmer Analyst
www.iesco-dms.com
707-468-5400
We are what we think. All that we are arises
with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make
the world. --Buddha
[6/20] from: tim:johnsons-web at: 20-Sep-2000 10:53
Hello: MTCW:
[news--ted--husted--com] wrote:
> Jingoism aside, your boss did made a good business decision. If you get
> hit by a bus, he can easily find a new Perl programmer to maintain the
> script. Finding a new REBOL programmer might be more difficult. The
> real cost of software is more often not development, but maintenance.
>
Yup. And it's kind of a chicken and egg thing. One way to
get past that sort of barrier is good dialecting that would
allow non-programmers to do a certain level of program
mainenance. I'm currently redoing a project that I originally
did in Borland C++ with BDE. And dialecting is going
to be considered so that an executive assitant who can
do web pages can do a large portion of the program
maintenance. I hope :)
> Something that REBOL needs but doesn't have is a killer app that can be
> sold with a maintenance contract. A working enterprise portal, like
> what the vaporific .COM site describes, would be great. Once a backbone
> application is in place, it would be easier to then use REBOL for other
> things.
>
I think the rebol team needs this fellow!! :)
> Personally, I wouldn't feel good about writing something in REBOL and
> then pretending it's Perl. Sounds like something the marketing boys in
> Redmond might dream up
I agree, but then, I am rewriting C++ objects so that they look like rebol.
I just can't help myself!!
-Tim
[7/20] from: gmassar:dreamsoft at: 20-Sep-2000 13:40
[tim--johnsons-web--com] wrote:
> Hello: MTCW:
> [news--ted--husted--com] wrote:
<<quoted lines omitted: 11>>
> do web pages can do a large portion of the program
> maintenance. I hope :)
REBOL was designed for non-programmers to write any scripts
because of its "natural" language. Hence, anybody with a good
brain can learn REBOL in a matter of days as compared to Perl or
others that would take weeks to learn. Any REBOL programmer can
be easily replaced. I know industry don't see that way unless
REBOL becomes standardized or something.
Geo Massar
Veteran programmer
[8/20] from: news:ted:husted at: 20-Sep-2000 17:37
On 9/20/2000 at 1:40 PM [gmassar--dreamsoft--com] wrote:
> REBOL was designed for non-programmers to write any scripts because
of its "natural" language. Hence, anybody with a good
brain can learn REBOL in a matter of days as compared to Perl or others
that would take weeks to learn. Any REBOL programmer can be easily
replaced. I know industry don't see that way unless REBOL becomes
standardized or something.
Anything can be said -- heck, look at all the wonderful-world things
said at REBOL.COM -- but then try and go find a working example of
REBOL/Express (or a an example of a working REBOL programmer in your
hometown).
If the REBOL/Express ROI is a few weeks, why isn't being used for a
developer channel by now?
If SELMA is most REBOL that REBOL will use, why should anyone else use
more?
I personally think REBOL is a fine language, and enjoy using it when I
have the opportunity. But since the marketing is not credible, I can't
in good conscious recommend it to clients. The support infrastructure
just isn't there.
-Ted.
[9/20] from: ryanc:iesco-dms at: 20-Sep-2000 14:51
> REBOL was designed for non-programmers to write any scripts
> because of its "natural" language. Hence, anybody with a good
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>
> Geo Massar
> Veteran programmer
Now that smells like a good business plan, teach programming using REBOL. $x
per person per lesson x times a week adds up well.
----------------------
Programming in 12 two hour lessons! Learn CGI , reports, email, FTP,
recursion, and more. Only basic computer skills and desire to learn required.
$xxx tuition, $xx each lesson.
----------------------
I am tempted to try this one out.
--Ryan
Ryan Cole
Programmer Analyst
www.iesco-dms.com
707-468-5400
We are what we think. All that we are arises
with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make
the world. --Buddha
[10/20] from: dan:rebol at: 20-Sep-2000 15:32
Ted,
Just to clarify things a bit. Our company uses REBOL for far more than
just for SELMA. I even use it regularly and I'm in marketing.
As for Express, that is a product suite still in early phases of
delivery. Development for demos and prototype projects has proven
extremely efficient internally. We still have a lot of improvements to make
with it, as well as some proof of concept with real customer use, but we
definitely believe in its many advantages over other current
offerings. You are correct that the support infrastructure for Express is
not there yet, but we hope to change that over the coming months. Of
course, we appreciate your interest in the language and will enjoy changing
your opinion as to recommending it to your clients :-)
Dan
At 05:37 PM 9/20/00 -0400, you wrote:
[11/20] from: gmassar:dreamsoft at: 20-Sep-2000 15:50
If REBOL goes into open source, you could tell your clients you
are using plain old ANSI C to develop whatever they want. They
need not to know HOW you developed. Pretty impressive, yes?
As I recalled many years ago (long before C came into
existence), I told my "boss" that I was using old Fortran but
actually used RATFOR (Rational Fortran, probably the first open
source) which was developed by the same Bell Lab boys who
invented C. I have no guilty of what I did.
Geo...
[news--ted--husted--com] wrote:
[12/20] from: ryanc:iesco-dms at: 20-Sep-2000 17:13
If I expected my customers may reject REBOL because its popularity, I might
present it to them as a riddle--something like:
Its a written language to computers does it speak
more and more adopt it every week
It runs on over 40 platforms, available for free
but its name has nothing to do with coffee
You can send an email in a single line
and create things in half the time
This language has no keywords of which to mention
you can just type your intention
Its syntax is the clearest yet to unfold
just print "hello world"
It is only known amongst a few
because this language is very new
OK, yes wierd. But it does force someone to think about some of the
benifits before they have something to put down because it is not this or
that.
--Ryan
[gmassar--dreamsoft--com] wrote:
> If REBOL goes into open source, you could tell your clients you
> are using plain old ANSI C to develop whatever they want. They
<<quoted lines omitted: 15>>
> >
> > -Ted.
--
Ryan Cole
Programmer Analyst
www.iesco-dms.com
707-468-5400
We are what we think. All that we are arises
with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make
the world. --Buddha
[13/20] from: gschwarz:netconnect:au at: 21-Sep-2000 11:59
It is a good riddle for people to think about.
Good public speakers use a illustration or riddle to get people thinking
first. They do not say is a product name, or answer full stop at the start.
Hollywood always give out some info about a movie in the lead up to release
day. But only just small amounts to get the public talking, never the plot.
[14/20] from: tim:johnsons-web at: 21-Sep-2000 8:00
Hello: FYI
I am designing an on-line class (intro to programming)
for a local school district.
Am using rebol as the language.
Best first choice IMHO.
Get 'em while they're young. :)
-tim
[ryanc--iesco-dms--com] wrote:
[15/20] from: siegel:prodigy:mx at: 21-Sep-2000 11:24
At 08:00 a.m. 21/09/00 -0800, Ryan Cole wrote:
> > Now that smells like a good business plan, teach programming using
> REBOL. $x per person per lesson x times a week adds up well. I am
> tempted to try this one out.
I am a non-programmer new to the list. I might be working with Rebol soon,
and it is possible that I will have a patron who would sponsor tutorials
for me and my son, 16, to learn Rebol programming. As I am a writer, these
lessons could then be developed into a commercial or non-commercial tutorial.
I'd be interested in hearing some ideas on the feasibility of this as well
as a show of hands from possible tutors.
--
JULES SIEGEL Apdo 1764 Cancun Q. Roo 77501
http://www.cafecancun.com Fax1.530.706.8739 Tel 1.52.98 83.36.29
[16/20] from: jeff:rebol at: 21-Sep-2000 9:32
Hello, Mr Siegel!
I'm always happy to offer any help I can provide those new
to learning REBOL, as are many on this list. I offer my
hearty encouragement to you in your ambitious endeavor!
-jeff
[17/20] from: gmassar:dreamsoft at: 21-Sep-2000 11:35
Jules,
I used to teach online during early 90's. I taught C/C++ courses
at CALC (Computer Aided Learing Center) using Genie network
(similar to AOL or Compuserve). We used Roundtable (similar to
chat room) for our classes. At one time, we had 60 students
attending one class. What a fun to see so many online at once. I
instructed them to raise their hands by sending just an
exclamation mark. That way I had a queue of students jotted
down. Each student has a chance to ask the teach. I didn't give
lectures but just answer questions students might raise during
the classes. The "lectures" were given in form of written texts.
They could download those notes weekly. I assigned them with
weekly projects. I was able to evaluate and grade their
programming skills by looking at their projects they developed
with what they learned during the course. Textbooks was used for
the classes. (I am not a tutorial writer.)
One student in German woke up in the middle of night just to
attend the class online for one hour. He had a laptop with a
modem on his bed. I had so many great stories and wonderful
experience of teaching online.
Unfortunately, I am not REBOL expert yet. However, I'll be more
than happy to help anyway I can.
Geo Massar
Veteran programmer/teacher
[siegel--prodigy--net--mx] wrote:
[18/20] from: rchristiansen:pop:isdfa:sei-it at: 21-Sep-2000 14:19
How did you handle unruly students typing out of turn? (assuming
there may have been unruly students. Trolls are always possible.)
The possibilities for a productive online classroom are increasing,
even for those persons stuck with low bandwidth. On the BeOS, we
have BeShare, which is a file-sharing program (similar to Napster, but
for any kind of file) but it is also a chat room where you can see who
is connected at all times. It is a great community building tool
because people pop in all of the time with questions, which they get
answered (or at least responded to) much more quickly than they
could receive responses from an e-mail discussion list.
Of course, there are coding projects going on at BeShare quit often
and the file-sharing aspects of BeShare help out with that quite a bit.
BTW, BeShare is open source as well as the server software called
MUSCLE. So far, MUSCLE servers have been compiled for the
BeOS, Linux, and FreeBSD.
I may start a REBOL collaboration on BeShare some day to increase
the interest in REBOL. I need to brush up on my own skills first,
however.
-Ryan
[19/20] from: rishi:picostar at: 21-Sep-2000 22:17
yes. I think rebol should attact educational market before python beats them to it! give
it to
schools/colleges for free!!!
Rishi
[20/20] from: norsepower:uswest at: 22-Sep-2000 8:35
Hey, this is a great idea! It's not like they're Apple and giving away free
hardware. They're just giving away binaries. Throw in a few Dummies books and
the price goes up, sure, but this is really a great idea.
Notes
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View the message alone to see the lines that have been omitted