The Industry Needs REBOL But Thinks it Wants Perl
[1/20] from: princepawn:mailandnews at: 20-Sep-2000 9:08
As I'm sure you all know, if you type rebol as a keyword into any jobsearch engine you will find no jobs anywhere. The situation with Perl is quite the opposite. Here at work, I had just finished up a slick REBOL script to do encrypted ftp file transfers that was 1/4th the size of the legacy Perl script. My boss was somewhat willing to accept a new language based on my description of it as easy to maintain, simple, yet powerful. But in the end, he said drop the REBOL version based on asking some of his friends about REBOL - and none had heard of it and none were sure that REBOL.com would not be just another washed up dot-com in another year or so. So, what I have been working on is a Perl implementation of the REBOL interpreter so that I can say "I am using the REBOL Perl module" and not tell them I am using a different language. In addition, the hidden-source methodology of RT pisses me off. I still cant run REBOL on my Debian/Linux machine and probably would've been able to had I been able to compile it myself. A perl implementation would run anywhere Perl would. And then I could get rid the console-oriented nature of REBOL when I felt like it. So what do you think? My guess is that there is far too much uninformed interest in doing things in Perl and that my Perl inmplementation of REBOL/Core is the only way to hide the wolf of REBOL in the sheep's clothing of Perl. To close, I also am not sure I will ever be able to command the type of pay I am commanding to do Perl programming and my stack of bills is something REBOL has not figured out how to reduce. terrence-brannon: [[princepawn--yahoo--com] perl-refugee myth-gamer] free-email: http://www.MailAndNews.com free-usenet: http://www.mailAndNews.com ; all the above is real REBOL code, believe it or not.
[2/20] from: capolunghi:att at: 20-Sep-2000 13:36
Ehhhh... maybe if we package Rebol with the words "Microsoft" in front of it, people will accept it more readily. Joe
[3/20] from: news:ted:husted at: 20-Sep-2000 13:46
On 9/20/2000 at 9:08 AM [princepawn--MailAndNews--com] wrote:
>So what do you think? My guess is that there is far too much
uninformed interest in doing things in Perl and that my Perl inmplementation of REBOL/Core is the only way to hide the wolf of REBOL in the sheep's clothing of Perl. Jingoism aside, your boss did made a good business decision. If you get hit by a bus, he can easily find a new Perl programmer to maintain the script. Finding a new REBOL programmer might be more difficult. The real cost of software is more often not development, but maintenance. Something that REBOL needs but doesn't have is a killer app that can be sold with a maintenance contract. A working enterprise portal, like what the vaporific .COM site describes, would be great. Once a backbone application is in place, it would be easier to then use REBOL for other things. Another growth area is control panels for ISPs or Webmasters, to make it easy to configure a Web site without calling the help desk or resorting to a command line. Several of these are now being done in Perl, but could easily be done in REBOL, and would look great in /VIEW. Again, if you are selling someone a real application with a support contract, rather than a miscellaneous script, the dynamics start to change. Personally, I wouldn't feel good about writing something in REBOL and then pretending it's Perl. Sounds like something the marketing boys in Redmond might dream up. -T.
[4/20] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 20-Sep-2000 19:58
----- Original Message ----- From: <[capolunghi--att--com]> To: <[list--rebol--com]> Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 7:36 PM Subject: [REBOL] The Industry Needs REBOL But Thinks it Wants Perl Re:
> Ehhhh... maybe if we package Rebol with the words "Microsoft" in front of > it, people will accept it more readily.
Hmm, then Carl would have to rename VID to VIC (Visual Interface Classes) and MS would finally got sued by Tim Rue for stealing his VIC name :-) -pekr-
[5/20] from: ryanc:iesco-dms at: 20-Sep-2000 11:22
Terrance, It is unfortunate your "boss" is so stand off-ish. I have found if you give a manager plenty of things to do, they leave you alone. When you work alone, you get more control over what you do. I discovered this several years ago, I was in a tough situation where my manager thought she needed to micro analyze everything I did. So I made a list of URGENT things my manager NEEDED to get done for me to make my department more PRODUCTIVE. Every time she came by my desk I rattled off about 3 things from my list. Soon after, she just avoided me, allowing me to go about my work as I always had--my way. To hide the source, or not to hide the source. That is the question. Whether it is nobler in the mind... If I was president of REBOL I wouldn't consider releasing my source for quite a few more years. The fear is that software giant X will analyze your source, build their own version, and of course with their super mega marketing department, lay waste to your efforts. Once REBOL is established, the marketing law "First in mind" comes to play, REBOL could go open source much more safely. I also might consider going open source if the company was in a desperate position for popularity.
>From an investment standpoint, now we are talking about the green stuff that gives
us REBOL, going open source could be bad, mainly because, as far as I know, its long term effects at best are unpredictable from a financial standpoint. What about Red Hat and other Linux companies? They of course have a much better argument for future profitability--taking on the biggest. Whose market is REBOL taking on? A small part of Borlands and Java--something I expect has not even been profitable. When it comes to becoming profitable, as usaul I am sure REBOL's got something "up their sleeve." Just keep in mind that convincing investors is entirely different than convincing programmers. As far as paying bills goes, I have found that smaller businesses don't really know or care what programming language you use. You cant find these guys with a net search, you actually have to knock on doors or use that telephone thing. Many of them need reports made, so to open maybe just ask them if they have any reports that they spend more than a day on. Often you do one little project and they reallize what a computer can REALLY do and invite you back for more. I find these type of jobs the most fun and fulfilling. Good luck, --Ryan [princepawn--MailAndNews--com] wrote:
> As I'm sure you all know, if you type rebol as a keyword into any jobsearch > engine you will find no jobs anywhere. The situation with Perl is quite the
<<quoted lines omitted: 24>>> free-usenet: http://www.mailAndNews.com > ; all the above is real REBOL code, believe it or not.
-- Ryan Cole Programmer Analyst www.iesco-dms.com 707-468-5400 We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world. --Buddha
[6/20] from: tim:johnsons-web at: 20-Sep-2000 10:53
Hello: MTCW: [news--ted--husted--com] wrote:
> Jingoism aside, your boss did made a good business decision. If you get > hit by a bus, he can easily find a new Perl programmer to maintain the > script. Finding a new REBOL programmer might be more difficult. The > real cost of software is more often not development, but maintenance. >
Yup. And it's kind of a chicken and egg thing. One way to get past that sort of barrier is good dialecting that would allow non-programmers to do a certain level of program mainenance. I'm currently redoing a project that I originally did in Borland C++ with BDE. And dialecting is going to be considered so that an executive assitant who can do web pages can do a large portion of the program maintenance. I hope :)
> Something that REBOL needs but doesn't have is a killer app that can be > sold with a maintenance contract. A working enterprise portal, like > what the vaporific .COM site describes, would be great. Once a backbone > application is in place, it would be easier to then use REBOL for other > things. >
I think the rebol team needs this fellow!! :)
> Personally, I wouldn't feel good about writing something in REBOL and > then pretending it's Perl. Sounds like something the marketing boys in > Redmond might dream up
I agree, but then, I am rewriting C++ objects so that they look like rebol. I just can't help myself!! -Tim
[7/20] from: gmassar:dreamsoft at: 20-Sep-2000 13:40
> Hello: MTCW: > [news--ted--husted--com] wrote:
<<quoted lines omitted: 11>>> do web pages can do a large portion of the program > maintenance. I hope :)
REBOL was designed for non-programmers to write any scripts because of its "natural" language. Hence, anybody with a good brain can learn REBOL in a matter of days as compared to Perl or others that would take weeks to learn. Any REBOL programmer can be easily replaced. I know industry don't see that way unless REBOL becomes standardized or something. Geo Massar Veteran programmer
[8/20] from: news:ted:husted at: 20-Sep-2000 17:37
On 9/20/2000 at 1:40 PM [gmassar--dreamsoft--com] wrote:
> REBOL was designed for non-programmers to write any scripts because
of its "natural" language. Hence, anybody with a good brain can learn REBOL in a matter of days as compared to Perl or others that would take weeks to learn. Any REBOL programmer can be easily replaced. I know industry don't see that way unless REBOL becomes standardized or something. Anything can be said -- heck, look at all the wonderful-world things said at REBOL.COM -- but then try and go find a working example of REBOL/Express (or a an example of a working REBOL programmer in your hometown). If the REBOL/Express ROI is a few weeks, why isn't being used for a developer channel by now? If SELMA is most REBOL that REBOL will use, why should anyone else use more? I personally think REBOL is a fine language, and enjoy using it when I have the opportunity. But since the marketing is not credible, I can't in good conscious recommend it to clients. The support infrastructure just isn't there. -Ted.
[9/20] from: ryanc:iesco-dms at: 20-Sep-2000 14:51
> REBOL was designed for non-programmers to write any scripts > because of its "natural" language. Hence, anybody with a good
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>> Geo Massar > Veteran programmer
Now that smells like a good business plan, teach programming using REBOL. $x per person per lesson x times a week adds up well. ---------------------- Programming in 12 two hour lessons! Learn CGI , reports, email, FTP, recursion, and more. Only basic computer skills and desire to learn required. $xxx tuition, $xx each lesson. ---------------------- I am tempted to try this one out. --Ryan Ryan Cole Programmer Analyst www.iesco-dms.com 707-468-5400 We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world. --Buddha
[10/20] from: dan:rebol at: 20-Sep-2000 15:32
Ted, Just to clarify things a bit. Our company uses REBOL for far more than just for SELMA. I even use it regularly and I'm in marketing. As for Express, that is a product suite still in early phases of delivery. Development for demos and prototype projects has proven extremely efficient internally. We still have a lot of improvements to make with it, as well as some proof of concept with real customer use, but we definitely believe in its many advantages over other current offerings. You are correct that the support infrastructure for Express is not there yet, but we hope to change that over the coming months. Of course, we appreciate your interest in the language and will enjoy changing your opinion as to recommending it to your clients :-) Dan At 05:37 PM 9/20/00 -0400, you wrote:
[11/20] from: gmassar:dreamsoft at: 20-Sep-2000 15:50
If REBOL goes into open source, you could tell your clients you are using plain old ANSI C to develop whatever they want. They need not to know HOW you developed. Pretty impressive, yes? As I recalled many years ago (long before C came into existence), I told my "boss" that I was using old Fortran but actually used RATFOR (Rational Fortran, probably the first open source) which was developed by the same Bell Lab boys who invented C. I have no guilty of what I did. Geo... [news--ted--husted--com] wrote:
[12/20] from: ryanc:iesco-dms at: 20-Sep-2000 17:13
If I expected my customers may reject REBOL because its popularity, I might present it to them as a riddle--something like: Its a written language to computers does it speak more and more adopt it every week It runs on over 40 platforms, available for free but its name has nothing to do with coffee You can send an email in a single line and create things in half the time This language has no keywords of which to mention you can just type your intention Its syntax is the clearest yet to unfold just print "hello world" It is only known amongst a few because this language is very new OK, yes wierd. But it does force someone to think about some of the benifits before they have something to put down because it is not this or that. --Ryan [gmassar--dreamsoft--com] wrote:
> If REBOL goes into open source, you could tell your clients you > are using plain old ANSI C to develop whatever they want. They
<<quoted lines omitted: 15>>> > > > -Ted.
-- Ryan Cole Programmer Analyst www.iesco-dms.com 707-468-5400 We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world. --Buddha
[13/20] from: gschwarz:netconnect:au at: 21-Sep-2000 11:59
It is a good riddle for people to think about. Good public speakers use a illustration or riddle to get people thinking first. They do not say is a product name, or answer full stop at the start. Hollywood always give out some info about a movie in the lead up to release day. But only just small amounts to get the public talking, never the plot.
[14/20] from: tim:johnsons-web at: 21-Sep-2000 8:00
Hello: FYI I am designing an on-line class (intro to programming) for a local school district. Am using rebol as the language. Best first choice IMHO. Get 'em while they're young. :) -tim [ryanc--iesco-dms--com] wrote:
[15/20] from: siegel:prodigy:mx at: 21-Sep-2000 11:24
At 08:00 a.m. 21/09/00 -0800, Ryan Cole wrote:
> > Now that smells like a good business plan, teach programming using > REBOL. $x per person per lesson x times a week adds up well. I am > tempted to try this one out.
I am a non-programmer new to the list. I might be working with Rebol soon, and it is possible that I will have a patron who would sponsor tutorials for me and my son, 16, to learn Rebol programming. As I am a writer, these lessons could then be developed into a commercial or non-commercial tutorial. I'd be interested in hearing some ideas on the feasibility of this as well as a show of hands from possible tutors. -- JULES SIEGEL Apdo 1764 Cancun Q. Roo 77501 http://www.cafecancun.com Fax1.530.706.8739 Tel 1.52.98 83.36.29
[16/20] from: jeff:rebol at: 21-Sep-2000 9:32
Hello, Mr Siegel! I'm always happy to offer any help I can provide those new to learning REBOL, as are many on this list. I offer my hearty encouragement to you in your ambitious endeavor! -jeff
[17/20] from: gmassar:dreamsoft at: 21-Sep-2000 11:35
Jules, I used to teach online during early 90's. I taught C/C++ courses at CALC (Computer Aided Learing Center) using Genie network (similar to AOL or Compuserve). We used Roundtable (similar to chat room) for our classes. At one time, we had 60 students attending one class. What a fun to see so many online at once. I instructed them to raise their hands by sending just an exclamation mark. That way I had a queue of students jotted down. Each student has a chance to ask the teach. I didn't give lectures but just answer questions students might raise during the classes. The "lectures" were given in form of written texts. They could download those notes weekly. I assigned them with weekly projects. I was able to evaluate and grade their programming skills by looking at their projects they developed with what they learned during the course. Textbooks was used for the classes. (I am not a tutorial writer.) One student in German woke up in the middle of night just to attend the class online for one hour. He had a laptop with a modem on his bed. I had so many great stories and wonderful experience of teaching online. Unfortunately, I am not REBOL expert yet. However, I'll be more than happy to help anyway I can. Geo Massar Veteran programmer/teacher [siegel--prodigy--net--mx] wrote:
[18/20] from: rchristiansen:pop:isdfa:sei-it at: 21-Sep-2000 14:19
How did you handle unruly students typing out of turn? (assuming there may have been unruly students. Trolls are always possible.) The possibilities for a productive online classroom are increasing, even for those persons stuck with low bandwidth. On the BeOS, we have BeShare, which is a file-sharing program (similar to Napster, but for any kind of file) but it is also a chat room where you can see who is connected at all times. It is a great community building tool because people pop in all of the time with questions, which they get answered (or at least responded to) much more quickly than they could receive responses from an e-mail discussion list. Of course, there are coding projects going on at BeShare quit often and the file-sharing aspects of BeShare help out with that quite a bit. BTW, BeShare is open source as well as the server software called MUSCLE. So far, MUSCLE servers have been compiled for the BeOS, Linux, and FreeBSD. I may start a REBOL collaboration on BeShare some day to increase the interest in REBOL. I need to brush up on my own skills first, however. -Ryan
[19/20] from: rishi:picostar at: 21-Sep-2000 22:17
yes. I think rebol should attact educational market before python beats them to it! give it to schools/colleges for free!!! Rishi
[20/20] from: norsepower:uswest at: 22-Sep-2000 8:35
Hey, this is a great idea! It's not like they're Apple and giving away free hardware. They're just giving away binaries. Throw in a few Dummies books and the price goes up, sure, but this is really a great idea.
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